Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[krautbernd]

Do you have any plans of letting us *outsource* additional equipment? Thinking especially of napalm grenades and the likes, maybe also additional alien alloy/tritanium ammunition?

[MK12]

Question about elerium damage. What that? What weapon?
Also what is the point in plasma weapon on hover tanks sectopods (laser sectopod even have better snapshot) if damage are same? There are 2 or 3 rare enemies which have weakness against plasma and strong against laser. Underwater not counting. Its actually better to have laser against enemy tanks. Setting on fire also pointless they dont survive to take even 1 turn damage from that. Standard zombie can 2 hit sectopod lol.
Also electronic slot on aircraft.  And what about this outsource aircraft making? How to use? Have the research and there are no changes.

[Solarius Scorch]

Do you have any plans of letting us *outsource* additional equipment? Thinking especially of napalm grenades and the likes, maybe also additional alien alloy/tritanium ammunition?

You mean you'd like to buy them instead of producing them?
It could be done of course, but IMO we don't have manufacturing projects at that game stage.

Question about elerium damage. What that? What weapon?

At this point none, unfortunately. It's part of future weaponry.

Also what is the point in plasma weapon on hover tanks sectopods (laser sectopod even have better snapshot) if damage are same? There are 2 or 3 rare enemies which have weakness against plasma and strong against laser. Underwater not counting.

The damage is the same, everything else is different... You could say there's not enough variety in enemy armour, but that's a different subject.

Its actually better to have laser against enemy tanks. Setting on fire also pointless they dont survive to take even 1 turn damage from that. Standard zombie can 2 hit sectopod lol.

Code: [Select]

  - type: STR_SECTOPOD_ARMOR
    (...)
    frontArmor: 145
    sideArmor: 130
    rearArmor: 100
    underArmor: 90


Code: [Select]

  - type: STR_ZOMBIE_WEAPON
    strengthApplied: true
    damageAlter:
      ArmorEffectiveness: 1.3


Code: [Select]

  - type: STR_ZOMBIE_STERILE_TERRORIST
    stats:
      strength: 84

I don't think so lol

Also electronic slot on aircraft.  And what about this outsource aircraft making? How to use? Have the research and there are no changes.

You need a craft with an ELECTRONICS slot.

[MK12]

But it happened though in mummy vs mummy map. Or it was fat zombie? Still standard or fat but kill with 2 hits. Maybe something wrong with stats in that mission.
I mean what is electronic? There no such item anywhere.  So how to build with outsource company?

[Solarius Scorch]

But it happened though in mummy vs mummy map. Or it was fat zombie? Still standard or fat but kill with 2 hits. Maybe something wrong with stats in that mission.

Could be. It's a complex game, there are many things which could happen...

I mean what is electronic? There no such item anywhere.

You need a craft with an ELECTRONICS slot.
(Or ELEC in short, in craft descriptions.)

I'm not sure what can be unclear in this message... It's not like I don't want to answer, but what else should I explain?

So how to build with outsource company?

Sorry... What???

[krautbernd]

You mean you'd like to buy them instead of producing them?
It could be done of course, but IMO we don't have manufacturing projects at that game stage.

Isn't UAC outsourcing (at least for craft weapons) a thing even before getting napalm grenades (Promotion II -> Promotion III)? Not saying UAC should be producing them, but that having the option later on (when you get access to MAGMA) to simply buy them.

And i don't mean that you should be unable to produce them, but giving players an alternative to produce them later on when you actually get the option to outsource production. Keeping multiple bases stocked up with tritanium ammo, napalm grenades and other critical stuff is kind of a chore tbh. That's what outsourcing is for. On that note, i also find it strange that sharing alloy/tritanium tech with MAGMA is the only option to get upgraded ammunition for certain guns while X-COM is essentially building cutting-edge space fighters and fusion explosives from scratch. Producing tritanium ammo regardless of caliber should be a piece of cake, given the technology you have access to.

Also, how come that sharing the tech leads to Osiron having access to most tritanium ammunition when we can't buy that stuff from MAGMA either? Why no let us buy an extended selection of calibers outright (for a hefty markup of course) once we share the tech? I actually find myself ditching alloy ammo relatively early because of the production overhead (i.e. having to transfer or produce alloys before starting production). This wouldn't be that much of a problem if we had an option to "automatically" produce the needed alloys when starting production of items that need them (i.e. by adding the cost and hours to the original item). Same goes for the knock-out gas grenade for example. Why not just add the cost for the grenade or simply outsource it as well?

Should an international para-military organization that does frontline research into aliens, the paranormal and that builds it's own hover tanks and spacefighters really have to produce every bullet their grunts fire when we have access to a company that specializes in doing exactely that? Early on, when you're still trying to get recognition for what you're doing? Definitely. When you get access to a company that specializes in providing *non-standard* weaponry and that you actually shared the that tech with and let's you buy said ammo for some of their guns? I think it's not too far fetched that MAGMA might be more than willing to produce other calibers as well.

[Solarius Scorch]

Isn't UAC outsourcing (at least for craft weapons) a thing even before getting napalm grenades (Promotion II -> Promotion III)? Not saying UAC should be producing them, but that having the option later on (when you get access to MAGMA) to simply buy them.

You could outsource everything and just not use workshops at all, but why the hell would I do that?

And i don't mean that you should be unable to produce them, but giving players an alternative to produce them later on when you actually get the option to outsource production. Keeping multiple bases stocked up with tritanium ammo, napalm grenades and other critical stuff is kind of a chore tbh. That's what outsourcing is for.

Ah, okay. But see above.

On that note, i also find it strange that sharing alloy/tritanium tech with MAGMA is the only option to get upgraded ammunition for certain guns while X-COM is essentially building cutting-edge space fighters and fusion explosives from scratch. Producing tritanium ammo regardless of caliber should be a piece of cake, given the technology you have access to.

M.A.G.M.A. sells ammo for their own guns. Why would it sell ammo for BlackOps? To promote their competition's product? And to get sued in some shadow court?

Also, how come that sharing the tech leads to Osiron having access to most tritanium ammunition when we can't buy that stuff from MAGMA either? Why no let us buy an extended selection of calibers outright (for a hefty markup of course) once we share the tech? I actually find myself ditching alloy ammo relatively early because of the production overhead (i.e. having to transfer or produce alloys before starting production). This wouldn't be that much of a problem if we had an option to "automatically" produce the needed alloys when starting production of items that need them (i.e. by adding the cost and hours to the original item). Same goes for the knock-out gas grenade for example. Why not just add the cost for the grenade or simply outsource it as well?

Because you could have the tech to produce the ammo, but not to produce the alloys.

Should an international para-military organization that does frontline research into aliens, the paranormal and that builds it's own hover tanks and spacefighters really have to produce every bullet their grunts fire when we have access to a company that specializes in doing exactely that? Early on, when you're still trying to get recognition for what you're doing? Definitely. When you get access to a company that specializes in providing *non-standard* weaponry and that you actually shared the that tech with and let's you buy said ammo for some of their guns? I think it's not too far fetched that MAGMA might be more than willing to produce other calibers as well.

See above.

[MK12]

Lets take for example Darkstar with 4 slots. 1 slot Beam type. 2-4 is Electronics type. What is Electronics? What can be put in this slot? I have all research and I dont have any electronic item for aircraft.
So UAC outsourcing research just give access to some early aircraft for buying thats all? When I read description of this research I've thought  "Here are materials, build this craft faster than my workshop and deliver to this hangar. I dont care about cost." like.

[krautbernd]

You could outsource everything and just not use workshops at all, but why the hell would I do that?

That's not what i was asking about and i was aware that this would come up, though it's not a valid counter argument. This isn't about outsourcing everything - first off, we can't outsource *everything* (lore-wise at least), seeing how elerium is limited, as is energetic blood plasma. Cyberdisks or Sectopods as well and a number of other stuff. This isn't a slippery slope - don't paint it out as one. We are clearly sharing alloy ammo tech, which is what i'm talking about, and napalm grenades are uprated incendiary grenades. I see no reason why X-COM should have to produce these themselves when can't produce stuff like alloy ammo for MAGMA weapons or certain craft weapons.

This isn't about making workshops obsolete. I simply see no point in regularly setting them up to produce alien alloys and ammo when i could be producing something more worthwhile once we have access to a company that can produce alloy ammunition. On the other hand, why do we have to share the alloy tech with MAGMA to get access to the ammo? Why can't we produce it ourselves beforehand like we can with the BlackOps ammo?

M.A.G.M.A. sells ammo for their own guns. Why would it sell ammo for BlackOps? To promote their competition's product? And to get sued in some shadow court?

Like they are being sued because they are using unlicensed alien tech?
Osiron already has access to other calibers besides those produced by MAGMA, and i see no reason why MAGMA should have any qualms about producing other ammo types if they can sell them to the highest bidder. They could simply license the stuff from BlackOps Industries if that's really a concern.

Because you could have the tech to produce the ammo, but not to produce the alloys.

Point taken, but that's not the case for the knock-out gas grenade.

[Solarius Scorch]

Lets take for example Darkstar with 4 slots. 1 slot Beam type. 2-4 is Electronics type. What is Electronics? What can be put in this slot? I have all research and I dont have any electronic item for aircraft.

Electronic slot accepts components related to radar efficiency. You may not have any yet.

That's not what i was asking about and i was aware that this would come up, though it's not a valid counter argument. This isn't about outsourcing everything - first off, we can't outsource *everything* (lore-wise at least), seeing how elerium is limited, as is energetic blood plasma. Cyberdisks or Sectopods as well and a number of other stuff. This isn't a slippery slope - don't paint it out as one. We are clearly sharing alloy ammo tech, which is what i'm talking about, and napalm grenades are uprated incendiary grenades. I see no reason why X-COM should have to produce these themselves when can't produce stuff like alloy ammo for MAGMA weapons or certain craft weapons.

So... the idea is that you could order tritanium shotgun shells from M.A.G.M.A.?
Yes, it's technically possible and not insensible, but... I don't know, this doesn't seem too elegant. Either you produce an item or you buy this item... If feels kinda bad, aesthetically. But I will think about it, give the idea a chance.

This isn't about making workshops obsolete. I simply see no point in regularly setting them up to produce alien alloys and ammo when i could be producing something more worthwhile once we have access to a company that can produce alloy ammunition. On the other hand, why do we have to share the alloy tech with MAGMA to get access to the ammo? Why can't we produce it ourselves beforehand like we can with the BlackOps ammo?
Like they are being sued because they are using unlicensed alien tech?

That's piracy!!! XD

Osiron already has access to other calibers besides those produced by MAGMA, and i see no reason why MAGMA should have any qualms about producing other ammo types if they can sell them to the highest bidder. They could simply license the stuff from BlackOps Industries if that's really a concern.

Because that would make M.A.G.M.A. vulnerable to countermoves and other nastiness. Same for other organizations who aren't protected by big enough controllers. So that "suing" scenario isn't really that far off, but it's about diplomacy, not law.
Also, it's boring.

Point taken, but that's not the case for the knock-out gas grenade.

Sorry, what was it about the knock-out grenade?

[MK12]

Did I miss some important research due to version upgrade? I build Avenger already but I dont have electronic items. Where can I see research tree? Its probably a bug. If its true then it not just a few researches.

[krautbernd]

So... the idea is that you could order tritanium shotgun shells from M.A.G.M.A.?
Yes, it's technically possible and not insensible, but... I don't know, this doesn't seem too elegant. Either you produce an item or you buy this item... If feels kinda bad, aesthetically. But I will think about it, give the idea a chance.

Interestingly i found it to be a very elegant solution Think about it this way - if you're a small independent comapny you can punch out some prototypes using a 3D-Printer, but once you grow past a certain point it's simply more economic to outsource the whole thing to a company in china. The way i play the game (head canon wise anyway) is that X-COM starts off as a "small" team of investigators that needs every edge they can get - when you first develop the technology you have to produce the ammo yourself because it's the only option to get ahead. Once you get the relevant contacts you want your engineers to build whatever else you can to get ahead - outsourcing what you can to free up the manpower. But you don't lose the ability to produce what you're outsourcing. It's a fallback in case things do get sour between you and your supplier. So what if they infringe on BlackOps industries patents (can you even patent ammunition in that way?) - how are they going to find out? As far as we know you're the only one prducing and using that ammo. You're simply subcontracting your production to them - if anyone asks your simply renting their workshop space (and their engineers on an hourly basis).

Sorry, what was it about the knock-out grenade?

Knock-out grenades require smoke grenades for production. Would consider simply adding the cost of the smoke grenade to the production costs and tie availability to the explosives license? I like the ide aof building of existing technology, but the way xcom works makes this more complicated than it should be - my engineers should be intelligent enough to order what they need if it's freely available.

[Solarius Scorch]

Interestingly i found it to be a very elegant solution Think about it this way - if you're a small independent comapny you can punch out some prototypes using a 3D-Printer, but once you grow past a certain point it's simply more economic to outsource the whole thing to a company in china. The way i play the game (head canon wise anyway) is that X-COM starts off as a "small" team of investigators that needs every edge they can get - when you first develop the technology you have to produce the ammo yourself because it's the only option to get ahead. Once you get the relevant contacts you want your engineers to build whatever else you can to get ahead - outsourcing what you can to free up the manpower. But you don't lose the ability to produce what you're outsourcing. It's a fallback in case things do get sour between you and your supplier. So what if they infringe on BlackOps industries patents (can you even patent ammunition in that way?) - how are they going to find out? As far as we know you're the only one prducing and using that ammo. You're simply subcontracting your production to them - if anyone asks your simply renting their workshop space (and their engineers on an hourly basis).

Maybe? but it would mean throwing away the current model, and I honestly don't think it sucks that much.
These aren't decisions which can be made easily (well they can, but... it's a bad idea). But I think it would be good to simply write a minimod for this; it would be trivial to do. I'm not convinced it should go straight to the main, though.

Knock-out grenades require smoke grenades for production. Would consider simply adding the cost of the smoke grenade to the production costs and tie availability to the explosives license? I like the ide aof building of existing technology, but the way xcom works makes this more complicated than it should be - my engineers should be intelligent enough to order what they need if it's freely available.

But you might have access to the knock-out grenades, but not to smoke grenades... Knockout grenades do not require smoke grenades to be researched. I guess it's an inconsistency actually... I'll fix it.
EDIT: Oh screw that, there's no great reason to keep one grenade dependant on the other.

[krautbernd]

But you might have access to the knock-out grenades, but not to smoke grenades... Knockout grenades do not require smoke grenades to be researched. I guess it's an inconsistency actually... I'll fix it.
EDIT: Oh screw that, there's no great reason to keep one grenade dependant on the other.

I guess i remembered this wrong, smoke grenades are tied to Promotion II, not to the explosives license. I guess it would make sense to tie the knock-out grenades to Promotion II as well. Once you get acess to smoke grenades X-COM should also be able to buy the fuzes and other parts needed to construct them.

[MK12]

So the only way to get missing research is modify save? What tool to use?
Also mummy vs mummy mission. Allied mummy always die in 3-4 turns, she just attack in close combat vs 10 enemies and die. XCOM spawn in the corner so they cant make it in time. I cant win this mission properly. 5 times already. Can you spawn this mummy with xcom pls?
Also alien alloy minigun tank ammo are forgotten. How about sectopod minigun, tanks are paper in late game. BO auto sniper how about to tweak auto shot from 30% to 35%?  It the only auto sniper in game after all.