Author Topic: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997  (Read 76713 times)

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #285 on: October 21, 2014, 06:25:09 am »
I should have the 1.999 version ready to go by Friday.
Then will be stabilization, and fixing all the bugs found by the online x-com tool and taking suggestions and tweaks to the ruleset.

Then there will be the 2.0 final release..

Offline cjones

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #286 on: October 21, 2014, 06:50:24 am »
Awesome.  Great mod!

Offline Infini

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #287 on: October 21, 2014, 03:28:20 pm »
Quote
I should have the 1.999 version ready to go by Friday.
Then will be stabilization, and fixing all the bugs found by the online x-com tool and taking suggestions and tweaks to the ruleset.

Finally, we concentrate our efforts to remove the bugs. Count me in.
I'll do the translation, and test the new release 1.999.

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #288 on: October 21, 2014, 11:47:02 pm »
Man, your workshops are going to get a workout in this mod.

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #289 on: October 22, 2014, 12:01:08 am »
They DEFINITELY do already. I have some 150 engineers (maybe 160) that go full steam converting weapons , repairing armors, ammunition (rockets, satchels) and when (ever!) I get some spare time I manufacture for selling....yeah pipe dream, it's been MONTHS since I could do that!

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #290 on: October 22, 2014, 01:55:06 am »
Do you think that increasing manufacturing requirements affect balance with mods like this?  Does having to make so many items hinder you from being on an           equal footing with the enemy progression?

Even in my modest UpClose and Personal Modpack, I've wondered if the balance would be affected by having to make lots of custom weapons/ammo etc.

Cheers, Ivan :D

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #291 on: October 22, 2014, 02:33:22 am »
They DEFINITELY do already. I have some 150 engineers (maybe 160) that go full steam converting weapons , repairing armors, ammunition (rockets, satchels) and when (ever!) I get some spare time I manufacture for selling....yeah pipe dream, it's been MONTHS since I could do that!

I get that. Maybe I've made a mistake.

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #292 on: October 22, 2014, 02:36:01 am »
Do you think that increasing manufacturing requirements affect balance with mods like this?  Does having to make so many items hinder you from being on an           equal footing with the enemy progression?

Even in my modest UpClose and Personal Modpack, I've wondered if the balance would be affected by having to make lots of custom weapons/ammo etc.

Cheers, Ivan :D
I am wondering that as well. That's why I am hoping for sommo feedback. What's taking too long to build? I can see reducing the time cosf on converting alien weapons.

What'a your experience, Ivan?

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #293 on: October 22, 2014, 03:46:26 am »
I am wondering that as well. That's why I am hoping for sommo feedback. What's taking too long to build? I can see reducing the time cosf on converting alien weapons.

What'a your experience, Ivan?

I haven't had a chance to play your mod yet.  And I'm only getting into midgame with my mod. 

Some of the ways I have tackled this, is keeping manufacturing time costs down.  Especially conversions.  For example, I have the Zapper, that uses a Stunrod and Alien Alloy to create a smaller, more powerful stun weapon.  My thought is that because this is a conversion/mod of existing resources, the time should be low.  I'd like one workshop to make a squadset in about a day.  I've also got stun bomb grenade conversions and blaster bomb conversions modeled like this too.

I know how long it takes to build some of the big ticket items like the Avengers and other craft, and these are Game Pace items that are important, and I don't think my other additional items should greatly detract from that.   My big question is my dart gun, whose initial clips are really small (6 rds), and I could see the need to constantly be making those.  That was one of the effects of the Toxi-Gun in Xcom Apocalypse (which I see my dart gun being like in many ways).  You had to keep a constant manufacturing line going to make the ammo because the mags were small and you used up a lot each mission.

My strategy is to diversify my manufacturing.  I leave one workshop going in my initial base building battle expendables (Flashbang grenades, dart gun ammo, zappers, etc) and build out a three workshop facility in my second base that will generate money when idle and big ticket items otherwise (armor, craft, and HWPs if I was playing with them).  So far its working out, but my demand for flashbangs (which is only my first level Battlefield domination tech) is really high.  I can go through 10-15 per mission.

Anyway, just some thoughts.
Cheers, Ivan :D

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #294 on: October 22, 2014, 05:47:41 am »
I haven't had a chance to play your mod yet.  And I'm only getting into midgame with my mod. 

Some of the ways I have tackled this, is keeping manufacturing time costs down.  Especially conversions.  For example, I have the Zapper, that uses a Stunrod and Alien Alloy to create a smaller, more powerful stun weapon.  My thought is that because this is a conversion/mod of existing resources, the time should be low.  I'd like one workshop to make a squadset in about a day.  I've also got stun bomb grenade conversions and blaster bomb conversions modeled like this too.

I've modeled my costs off existing times.  But the conversion from alien to human weapons takes about 40 man hours, which is about the same as half the time it takes to make a plasma clip.  The fun part you have to remember is that all the engineers are working 24h 7d.  So one engineer can crank out a converted weapon in less than two days in game.

Quote
I know how long it takes to build some of the big ticket items like the Avengers and other craft, and these are Game Pace items that are important, and I don't think my other additional items should greatly detract from that.   My big question is my dart gun, whose initial clips are really small (6 rds), and I could see the need to constantly be making those.  That was one of the effects of the Toxi-Gun in Xcom Apocalypse (which I see my dart gun being like in many ways).  You had to keep a constant manufacturing line going to make the ammo because the mags were small and you used up a lot each mission.

Well you can always balance the utility of the dart gun against the constant need to be constructing new clips for it. 

In mine, for the trio of alien weapons, you can use the clips/mags left by dead aliens. But if you want to use the human designed ones (plasma DMR, SMG and the like), you have to do conversion to the clips to get there, or build brand new ones. Those take about 10 hours to do, or 1/8 of the time of building a new clip/mag.



Quote
My strategy is to diversify my manufacturing.  I leave one workshop going in my initial base building battle expendables (Flashbang grenades, dart gun ammo, zappers, etc) and build out a three workshop facility in my second base that will generate money when idle and big ticket items otherwise (armor, craft, and HWPs if I was playing with them).  So far its working out, but my demand for flashbangs (which is only my first level Battlefield domination tech) is really high.  I can go through 10-15 per mission.

I'm trying to keep anything from dominating too much. Each weapon (except the busted shotguns) should have their own place on the battlefield.  The SMG's are one handed have crazy autofire accuracy, but hit like a wet sock.  The assault rifle can do it all, but won't wow you while doing it.  The DMR hits hard, but if you need to get a ton of shots on target, good luck with that.  The SAW is MOAR DAKKA but is slightly weaker than the assault rifle and the sniper weapons are horrifying, but finding a way to reliably use them can be problematic.

Everything in it's right place.  The only thing I find myself using too much are the damn explosive satchels and light rockets.

Quote
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Cheers, Ivan :D

Thanks for the insight

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #295 on: October 22, 2014, 12:46:13 pm »
I eagerly give you my feedback Kingmob, along with an attached filesave once I get back to my place (you can infer MANY things from there I suppose).

The only thing I can't speak of is the Hyperwave decode/encoder thing: I discoreved HWD right before you entered the encoder part....I was saving three alien bases for it  :P

Manufacturing times in my opinion feel right, VERY much so.

The only "problem" I had was with producing Tier 1+ armors, which takes what seems to be an egregiously LONG time compared to the tier 0-0.5 stuff (ESPECIALLY against alloyed conventional armors, which are done overnight by a 50 eng team), and THAT basically is the main reason I felt so compelled to introduce armor repair....seemed to me to make sense and balances out nicely.

Right now the only problem is that once you're stocked with armors, you RARELY ever lose them since it most always come back damaged at worst from a mission, you only destroy them when destroying friendly corpses with HE damage or leave behind fallen comrades when aborting.

In that very case I do my best to recover as much equipment as possible when running away so that might be a gameplay enhancement in a way  ;D

I just wish there would be a way to RANDOMLY determine if the recovered damaged armor is beyond repair, but the game engine offers no way to do that currently.


From a manufacturing point of view I had no troubles keeping my Alloy ammo stocked nor my Light rockets or Satchels. Satchels are great, I find myself using them even thou I have a decent stock of alien grenades, I THINK that they might weight s bit more to balance out, but honestly with the added Power Armor strenght I struggle to give my soldier ENUFF stuff to carry w/o being overdone.


Barring the shotgun, whose issues might have to be carried over the botched shotgun mechanics (I say that because NO ammo on the shotguns could match the firepower of a LASER PISTOL which can fire a LOT even w/o autofire given the extremely fast snap), I think that rockets are the suffering bits in the amrory:

 - Enhanced Light rockets dwarf all the other alternatives, cheap, manufactured quickly, light and small, you might want to reintroduce the "3 squares" light rocket to balance in.

 - The Armor piercing Rocket finds next to no usage in my playthrough, I only used it when I was wary of the area effect engulfing MY own soldiers (during base defense). then again when Enhanced Light rockets entered the scene their nice blast power given the not overwhelmingly large blast radius make it a perfect weapon for Sectopods and Cyberdisks (the latter might be killed off W/O exploding as a bonus, the former MIGHT be softened up since the're the x4 damage to 4-tiles HWP).

 - The large rocket I find it more useful  for demolition than any other use, to save my guys from concussion damage, so I usually carry ONE or TWO of them, but I consistenly stayed with one in the later stages.

 - the incendiary rocket is superseded by the MGL incendiary grenade ammos, I have used ONE in all my playthrough so far and don't plan to ever use one again.


Well, summing it up...about manufacturing I think that given the greatly improved arsenal available, it only makes sense that manufacturing becomes more important and more unwieldy, it balances the enhanced weapon choice and availability, raising costs and maintenance.

For a more comprehensive picture, again look at my save: it's a no psi superhuman ironman, I lost THREE commanders and TWO Skyrangers teams (you can look at the dates in memorial to hint some history). But my score has always been in the very high grounds and I never struggled economically.

To be fair I also think I am NOT a particularly good player.

It's a bit biased from the easy HWD availability and no PSI perhaps, but there's no unbalancing matter in the player's side I guess, and there's a fair challenge to be had going on, but nothing TOO scary.

I disabled PSI because at this point I would be MCing most anything in the battlefiled, that is the thing in the game that needs SERIOUS workout and don't think mods can ever strighten up the thing.

Basically I would have had my squad wiped a couple more times and *maybe* a base lost to Sectoids (the Japan one) if I had psi in the game but I guess I would be roughly in the same (winning) position by now since I could be PSI impervious.

Going furhter, your mod is so tactically sound that now the players has means to crush the AI to the point that it's no longer smart enuff to compete, the Laser LMG can easily be dubbed "Sectopod DDT" and the Laser sniper rifle is BRUTAL against those (from the side mostly) since it can one-up them at times....it's not AUTOMATIC, but a human player can leverage things "easily" and fight fairly a team of ethereals.

If I may, to "equal" those terms we definitely need a final tier alien race, tougher than ethereals and maybe with PSI wielding leaders and commanders.
Coupled with NO Psi active use by humans except from some form of PSI Resistance training that can come from this late game alien.

Oh and also Melee stun for all the regular weapons, oh I won't use it all that much but I really miss it; BTW I think that keeping this in a separate ruleset could still be worth.

Also up to now the blaster launcher only worked in my favor, since REGULARLY the leader of the UFO fires one shot in panic and kills himself along maybe the navigator, causing major panic havoc in the regular alien troops, giving away their position berseking or dropping weapons (I do not play with alien pickup weapons thou, I've seen some strange behaviour in my trials).

Well that was quite a random train of toughts! hope the're some usefulness there...and simply Keep up the good work.

Offline cjones

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #296 on: October 22, 2014, 03:09:47 pm »
If I could peak inside here a minute....an observation relating to the aliens getting crushed by xcom with this mod.  I installed the alien armory mod alongside this and aside from maybe balance issues on the xcom side, it gives the aliens a fighting chance again.   No game crashing incompatibility so far as I can tell. 

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #297 on: October 22, 2014, 07:37:44 pm »
I have been playing a whole hell of a lot here recently to be able to offer some meaningful feed back and have been mulling over some of the things I experienced.

The new HWPs kick ass.

They are power pieces upon the battlescape and allow serious firepower to be brought to bear in a meaningful way. They are perfect for clearing and controlling the outside of UFOs and offer the ability for flexible tactics and demolition work in a single package and have good survival rates. I will push forward with a GMG HWP and use it to ice windows and roofs of buildings while pushing forward and run soldiers right up its tracked ass and duck to use it as a piece of mobile cover and smoke them all with a scout drone. Scout Drone will then make the initial penetration of the UFO before my soldiers basically ROFLPWN any aliens inside.

The ability to turn the turret independent of the tracks is a blessing and a curse. It saves a LOT of TUs and can give you an advantage in surprise, which is good for a unit that has low reactions, but it also exposes the side armor which is weaker than the front Glacis... fair trade in my eyes anyway, but a GREAT deal in ET2 because tanks are so much better at surviving. 

The ability to designate equipment that compliments the ability scores of a soldier is VERY powerful and makes me smile. I can easily assign equipment that gives maximum tactical flexibility to an individual, so more soldiers are as useful as they can possibly be to the squad as a whole.

The starting armors suck, but give a way better chance for soldiers to survive a friendly fire accident and I dig that.

The rocket launcher is redundant in my own personal opinion... With SSRL and ISSRL everyone becomes a rocketeer and the increased aimed accuracy for the rocket launcher doesn't make up for the fact that EVERYONE can have one in their backpack. The power of it is meh, but I'm using it to pop cyberdisks... who effectively take 4x damage from HE so even if I have to shoot it twice, I am way more likely to have two guys with a rocket to do it.

SAW is pretty good... it is about right for what it is happy with it.

Auto pistol is pretty cool, but needs an increase of accuracy extending two more squares.

Magnum is perfect.

Shot gun is better than previous versions, still a little wonky.

Marksman's rifle falls in a middle ground that I hate. The assault rifle is a better choice in almost all situations because the difference in accuracy is negligible and costs way less TUs because of percentages. The difference in damage and being able to take WAY more shots with an assault rifle vastly outweighs the bump in aimed and snap accuracy of the markman's rifle. In comparison with the sniper rifle it makes me shake my head because the TU percentage of the Sniper rifle is too high for the damage. Yes, accuracy is high and it offers great accuracy but  is so overshadowed the mobility offered by either the MR or AR that why would I take the Sniper? like ever? It sucks for reaction fire, and gives basically zero mobility for being able to take a shot that could save the life of a soldier.

I actually propose a fix that is this.

1. Up the snapshot accuracy of MR by 5% (to 75) and reduce aimed shot accuracy of MR by 10%(to 110) and Reduce aimed shot TU% of MR by 5(to 50)
2. Reduce aimed shot accuracy of AR by 10 (to 100) and reduce TU% of aimed shot to by 5 (to 45%)
3. Increase snap shot accuracy of SR by 5 (to 55) and reduce TU% by 5 (to 35) and decrease aimed shot TU% by 15 (to 55%) and increase damage by 5 in all ammo categories

This should make the differences a little bit more pronounced so you can get two aimed shots with the MR without moving or 3 slightly more accurate shots. Gives the assault rifle guy a little bit more options on engaging a target and makes a sniper rifle a little bit better for reaction fire and allows a little bit more of shooting and scooting so a sniper can actually snipe instead of standing there like a dumb shit because he can only take on average 1-2 steps and a facing movement. or one step and crouch which often breaks line of sight. Meaning most of the time my snipers get replaced with Assault rifles or DMR because they can actually take a few steps.


Other thoughts....

I hate PSI with a purple piss passion because it is OP and has some serious flaws and quirks that would be cool if addressed properly... let me give a few examples.
In vanilla we have psi and the actual user does not need to see the target... As long as the target is seen by an alien then they are fair game. This is silly. If a PSI user doesn't have to see the  target then that would mean that a Psi user can "feel" the target and thus should know immediately on landing where the aliens are at and conversely the aliens would know where the humans are at. Can we say broken??  ???  What about the fact that aliens can basically hack unmodified humans. WHAT? that is like Using WIFI to hotwire a 57 Chevy and have it go all Christine. I could actually see an HWP being controlled more than an unmodified human because of the technological nature of an HWP. Anyways...

The aliens need scaling races/ modified races that increase in difficulty and number to reflect their change in doctrine. We see this on the horizon of the community already with mods adding cybernetic enhanced sectoids. I personally would love to see at least seven new races/ variants using both recolored sprites and new art work.

1. Mechtoids- Love these guys!!!
2. Cyberlids- I have a thread on these guys and looks like Arthanor is picking up the ball  ;D https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2986.0
3. MVII- Muton, variant two. the ones that get rolled out when a species is not being conquered fast enough by alien standards (Tougher, stronger, more TUs) think Spartan Mutons.
4. Snake Mutants- Suggested by Arthanor and he's doing it as far as I know.
5. Waspite- obviously an improved floater
6. Gazer-sons of bitches....
7. Mechtereals- Uparmored etherals...with Blue Cloaks instead of orange. Nightmare time for xcom soldiers.
8. Grim Reapers- Reapers with sectopod like traits of gun and armor... blacked out except for their bright  shiny alloy jaws
9. Dread pods- Sectopod with higher armor and a full auto plasma gun and higher reactions
10. An entire range of cyberdisks equipped with different weapons


Alien weapons.
1.Infection weapons that are used to turn more people into Chrysalids
2. Alien small launcher bombs that go boom
3. Maybe fourth or fifth class of Alien weapons that are equate to DRT (dead right there) for all but the most heavily armored troops.
4. ??

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #298 on: October 22, 2014, 08:04:52 pm »
Of course I was able to get back to my place only now. Attached the belated savegame  ;D

Comments Later.


Offline Arthanor

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #299 on: October 22, 2014, 08:17:28 pm »
That's some nice feedback!

As a fellow mod developer who also struggle with balancing and making every weapon relevant, I can suggest a few things, maybe. I don't have a marksman rifle per say, but I do have two tiers of laser sniper rifles and two tiers of gauss ones. Usually, gauss has better damage/accuracy and laser has autoshots, but that doesn't work for sniper rifles. So what I did is play around with the TUs, Range and Accuracy of my weapons.

I see my laser sniper rifles as a DMR: It fires faster (less TU), it has a shorter effective range (minimum range 10 instead of 15-20, snapshot maximum range 15 instead of 20-25), and it is less accurate than the gauss sniper (my real sniper weapon).

I also reduced the accuracy of the sniper weapons (you can see up to 150% accuracy in certain mods) in favor of damage. Giving someone a sniper rifle doesn't make them good at shooting. If I got one, I probably wouldn't hit anything. What it does is take a marksman and turn him into a death dealer. The marksman brings the aiming ability, the rifle brings the range and damage. Otherwise, sniper rifles are awesome for rookies and that's just wrong. With high damage and high accuracy, snipers become great for the "shot that really counts", killing that one alien that everyone else missed and is poised to unleash hell on the squad next turn.

Regarding aliens, I do indeed intent on developing improved chryssalids and snakemen. Once I am satisfied that the XAE is "complete". In general, every mod that introduces new better weapons needs to be balanced by delayed access and new stuff for the aliens too, but that's a lot more difficult to do (whole sprites for new aliens, compared to only 8 handobs for a new weapon). I have a lot of hope for my next mod compilation, "Horror from Above", which will include new weapons and races in the same modular fashion as the XAE.

Cheers! And KingMob, keep up the good work :) HelmetHair, feel free to drop by the XAE ;)