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Author Topic: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997  (Read 76279 times)

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #315 on: October 23, 2014, 06:11:22 am »
It is indeed complicated and I do not insist on their being one "perfect" mix of weapons that EVERYONE should use in all situations and that any particular tactic is necessarily better than another. However, it now appears that all my favorite toys are going to get the Axe.... Le sigh. :)

Rationale behind nerfing the tank's armor: In my current build, I was having my soldiers slamming the tank with Sniper rifle shots and Laser DMR shots and even SSRL and the thing was barely under 140 hp. I just need to adjust the armor down enough that it will start taking damage from sniper rifles again.

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #316 on: October 23, 2014, 06:50:30 am »
The tanks are going to be nerfed a bit, as far as their toughness and I expect before 2.0 they will be bumped back up to somewhere in between, so expect them to be weaker than now, but not too much.

And the way you re using the tanks is exactly how you are supposed to use an armored vehicle tactically, it becomes the bullet sponge and used to clear structures and fight other armor.

Yep.


I am going to have to address this, unfortunately, with a nerf to the SSRL and ISSRL's aimed accuracy and by doing some adjustment to armored HWP, like I did with the X-com tanks.  Most likely, 1.0 for damage resistance is going to become 0.35.  I'll have to play with it a bit.

Yep. I don't use the Aimed shot with a SSRL anyway.  Because they are disposable and I use them like crazy and Might have 3-4 dudes popping off 1-2 rockets each... I'll live :) However, I will hope that you might actually add a third tier SSRL that mimics a  IMPROVED APFDS rocket but weighs 9 and takes up 2x3 squares for popping sectopods.

It's a bullet hose. Without a suppression stat, it loses some of it's tactical punch, but I think it works just fine without it.  It's one of my favorite midmap dominators.  Two guys with SAWs across the street as two guys with SMGs or Shotties cross.  If something ugly pops up, get the scouts out of the alley of fire and then just open up with two massive auto fire strings from both gunners.

Yep. Usually I say something to the poor bastard about to get lit up like "PREPARE YOUR ANUS!" before raining hell on the shmuck like Race Bannon on Henchmen.... Poor devils. :D


I assume you mean autofire dropoff range. I'll play with it a bit.  The gun isn't supposed to be as accurate as say a Glock C, but it's because of using the powerful 5.7mm rounds.  It's for that close work inside UFOs.

I have personally fired both an FN FiveSeven and an 18C (hurray for full retard!) and believe that you should reevaluate that statement. The reason is that motherfucker newton and his Third Law which I learned about after drinking too much and falling down a flight of stairs....anyways, both 9mm and 5.7 have similar amounts of total energy , however 5.7 accomplishes this by a high velocity and light bullet, while 9mm is a much heavier and slower bullet. 5.7 is not only very accurate because it's VERY high velocity means a flatter trajectory, but because it is throwing a smaller, lighter bullet so the recoil is noticeably less. Also it should hold 20 rounds and 30 is not reaching either. The 5.7mm would be way more accurate because it would be more controllable.

Sniper rifles should do minimal damage to a tank.... Seriously, AR500 can spall 50BMG at 3/8 of an inch in thickness.

I'll comment more later.... SLEEEPY

--HH

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #317 on: October 23, 2014, 05:05:17 pm »
Yep.


I have personally fired both an FN FiveSeven and an 18C (hurray for full retard!) and believe that you should reevaluate that statement. The reason is that motherfucker newton and his Third Law which I learned about after drinking too much and falling down a flight of stairs....anyways, both 9mm and 5.7 have similar amounts of total energy , however 5.7 accomplishes this by a high velocity and light bullet, while 9mm is a much heavier and slower bullet. 5.7 is not only very accurate because it's VERY high velocity means a flatter trajectory, but because it is throwing a smaller, lighter bullet so the recoil is noticeably less. Also it should hold 20 rounds and 30 is not reaching either. The 5.7mm would be way more accurate because it would be more controllable.

The 5.7mm I never have fired myself.  But being a necked round, I expected it to kick like the Tokarev or the .357 sig, which I have fired and are similarly necked pistol rounds.  After checking into things, it seems you are absolutely right. Most people put the felt recoil of the 5.7mm at 20-30% less than a standard, non +p or +p+ 9mm round.

So I will adjust the weapon a bit under your recommendation.

Quote
Sniper rifles should do minimal damage to a tank.... Seriously, AR500 can spall 50BMG at 3/8 of an inch in thickness.

Well, against a MBT, a 50 bmg would barely scratch it. But these are smaller, remote controlled vehicles, with armor only there to protect the internals and weapons  Also, an AR500 can't deal with even the mild steel core .50 BMG rounds.

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #318 on: October 23, 2014, 07:46:38 pm »

Well, against a MBT, a 50 bmg would barely scratch it. But these are smaller, remote controlled vehicles, with armor only there to protect the internals and weapons  Also, an AR500 can't deal with even the mild steel core .50 BMG rounds.

I wasn't clear on this one and you are completely right mild steel cores will easily defeat reasonably thick plates of AR500 .

However, what I couldn't articulate (sleep deprivation) was that hard steel will cause the jacket break and pieces to spread out after penetration; spalling. Smaller pieces slow down faster in the presence of resistance... cuz Newton. When a bullet spalls it breaks apart and smaller pieces begin to fan out away from the penetration and every little fraction of an inch of space between one plate and another allows the bullet and or fragments to slow down or gives more of a chance to deflect. To a human a penetration would immediately mean game over because meat bleeds. To a robot? nope. Even in the event of a penetration of armor a half assed design would include outer and inner armor layers air gapped, with HDPE or kevlar backing behind the second layer, and the electronics would likely be sealed in their own protective enclosure with the actual components sealed into a block of epoxy. Not counting that there would probably be redundancy built in or that all of the HWPs have domes and curves for armor , meaning deflection and depending on the curvature of the armor and the attack angle would mean that the actual thickness versus the relative thickness HIGHLY favors the HWP.

Let's list this out of the advantages of an HWP armor.

1.Curved outer armor for initial deflection
2.Curved outer armor providing more relative armor against a penetration by its geometry
3.An air gap to catch high velocity spall and encourage deflection between inner and outer armor layers
4.Inner armor probably tilted 5 to 15 degrees relative to center-line to encourage deflection.
5.Spall shielding for inner armor penetration to slow or stop secondary spall
6.Electronic enclosure
7.Epoxy encasement
8.Redundancy

So could a sniper rifle with 50 BMG hurt a HWP? Yes, would it take losts of bullets? yes.

Now with a plasma based weapon... man that is a whole 'nother ball game.

Was that a little more clear? :o

-HH

 

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #319 on: October 23, 2014, 08:00:23 pm »
I wasn't clear on this one and you are completely right mild steel cores will easily defeat reasonably thick plates of AR500 .

However, what I couldn't articulate (sleep deprivation) was that hard steel will cause the jacket break and pieces to spread out after penetration; spalling. Smaller pieces slow down faster in the presence of resistance... cuz Newton. When a bullet spalls it breaks apart and smaller pieces begin to fan out away from the penetration and every little fraction of an inch of space between one plate and another allows the bullet and or fragments to slow down or gives more of a chance to deflect. To a human a penetration would immediately mean game over because meat bleeds. To a robot? nope. Even in the event of a penetration of armor a half assed design would include outer and inner armor layers air gapped, with HDPE or kevlar backing behind the second layer, and the electronics would likely be sealed in their own protective enclosure with the actual components sealed into a block of epoxy. Not counting that there would probably be redundancy built in or that all of the HWPs have domes and curves for armor , meaning deflection and depending on the curvature of the armor and the attack angle would mean that the actual thickness versus the relative thickness HIGHLY favors the HWP.

Let's list this out of the advantages of an HWP armor.

1.Curved outer armor for initial deflection
2.Curved outer armor providing more relative armor against a penetration by its geometry
3.An air gap to catch high velocity spall and encourage deflection between inner and outer armor layers
4.Inner armor probably tilted 5 to 15 degrees relative to center-line to encourage deflection.
5.Spall shielding for inner armor penetration to slow or stop secondary spall
6.Electronic enclosure
7.Epoxy encasement
8.Redundancy

So could a sniper rifle with 50 BMG hurt a HWP? Yes, would it take losts of bullets? yes.

Now with a plasma based weapon... man that is a whole 'nother ball game.

Was that a little more clear? :o

-HH

Well, as described in my mod, all the gunpowder weapons are using tungsten carbide penetrators, which (as I am sure you are aware) are incredible penetrators.  But what you are describing is what I envisioned as well, that the armor is layered composites, ceramic and steel so that they can both be somewhat resistant to plasma fire (carbon fiber and twaron aramids, combined with steel & Chobham type ceramic armor.  But since these tanks are about the size of a subcompact car (think a smart-car) they have limited armor and that armor is a 'compromise' armor that has been put together based on trying to defeat different and exotic threats.

So with this armor, they shouldn't be killed with one shot from the BMG, but as I have them currently, it was taking around 10-20 shots to get the tank down to half health and they should be wrecked at about 8-15 shots.  Meanwhile, frag grenades were roughing them up bad...

So, adjustments have to be made.

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #320 on: October 23, 2014, 08:30:08 pm »
But seriously, thanks for the info on the 5.7x28mm round.  That's quite the feat of ballistics for it to be as effective as it is, and kick less than the 9mm round!


Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #321 on: October 23, 2014, 10:45:58 pm »
Well...dial them back a little and then make a true Antimaterial rifle  ;D

I'm thinking something along the lines of a Denel NTW-20 Chambered in 20x110 Hispano, even the timeline fits as it was first fielded by South Africa in 98 and South Africa IS an X-Com country  ;)

Although an RT-20 would also work becaus of it's much shorter profile and introduced in Croatia in 94.... both fire the same round.

I would totally be onboard with either one lobbing a 2000 grain (130 gram) bullet down range at 2800fps (850m/s) at very high aimed accuracy and a very unreasonable weight.

If it was me I would make the NTW-20 weigh like 17 for gun 7 for 3 round magazine for a total of 24. Remove Snap Shot entirely and have 120% accuracy for aimed shot at 85% TUs doing  90 AP damage and 120 improved.

while if it was the RT-20 I would have it weigh 15 and each round would weigh 2. Still no snap shot but have 120% accuracy for aimed shots but 70 TU% to fire. So you could still load and fire in a single turn at the minimum TU statistic. Still doing 90 and 120


I giggled while writing this.... which means you probably shouldn't even consider it....

-HH

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #322 on: October 23, 2014, 11:50:53 pm »
Yeah the 20mm anti tank rifle has gone through my mind, but because of the scale, the damage starts getting absurd. Having the 20mm do anything less than 4x the damage of the assault rifle would make it quite nerfed.

It's a bit of a no-prize explanation to have the bmg be able to take out the tanks with 8-12 shots, but if I afford a high invulnerbility to to human hwp then I'd have to give all alien hwp a near immunity to small arms and the way you have to face down 8-10 cyberdisks sometimes, that be waaaaay too bastardly.


Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #323 on: October 24, 2014, 12:18:08 am »
Yep and nope. :)

My operatives already hate me so much that I regularly wake up with crap smeared on my mirror.

Nah, dial back the tanks. Let me run some numbers to see what would give you a 50% chance of popping an enemy four square and an xcom HWP.

Methinks there can be a happy middle ground...

-HH

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #324 on: October 24, 2014, 06:24:21 am »
Coming up with an interesting algorithm for making weapons that are only accurate in the hands of someone with high firing:

Set the weapon's accuracy to 250%, but aimed range at 15 and drop at 7

Code: [Select]
Firing
85: At 20 squares: 178%  At 25 squares: 142% 30 Squares: 107.5% 35 Squares: 73%
60: At 20 squares: 115%  At 25 squares: 80% 30 Squares: 45% 35 Squares: 10%
45: At 20 squares: 78%  At 25 squares: 43% 30 Squares: 7% 35 Squares: 0%

That problem is that the numbers on the ufopedia screen are going to be complete bullcrap, but once you are in the field...



Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #325 on: October 24, 2014, 04:11:08 pm »
That is pretty interesting....

Anyway you can simply override the UFOpedia screen and put in whatever numbers you wish?

If so, then put the accuracy of what it would be 20 squares or less or whatever distance you arbitrarily set.

As long as those numbers line up then there shouldn't be a problem right??

-HH

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #326 on: October 24, 2014, 06:13:28 pm »
You could "hack" the ufopaedia by making your own image that looks like the automatically generated weapon entry (type_id: 4) and using that with ufopaedia entry type 7 to put text on it. If you do it right, the player wouldn't see the difference.

Of course, if you tweak the weapon stats, you'd have to redo the image every time, but that's what you get for being fancy ;)

Getting what you want out of the weapon stats, even with the ranged based accuracy, is quite a challenge. It's very interesting to see what we all come up with! This long range accuracy calculation looks interesting.

Kind of similar, I am using minrange and snaprange to define a "band" in which snapshots are useful, especially for heavy/sniper weapons. That way snapshots are not good at either short nor long range, but still useful in the right circumstance. And the region of usefulness increases with trooper accuracy. Soon I will go through all XCom weapons to use that and make sure heavy weapons are no longer great at short range (a heavy laser/plasma really shouldn't be a breaching weapon!)

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #327 on: October 24, 2014, 09:18:58 pm »
You could "hack" the ufopaedia by making your own image that looks like the automatically generated weapon entry (type_id: 4) and using that with ufopaedia entry type 7 to put text on it. If you do it right, the player wouldn't see the difference.

The other challenge to this is support for other languages. :(

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #328 on: October 24, 2014, 09:22:03 pm »
True.. although you can still define the flavor text independently, all the headers would be stuck in English :/

Offline pkrcel

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Re: [WIP][Beta][MegaMod]Equal Terms 2.0 - Beta 1.997
« Reply #329 on: October 24, 2014, 11:04:25 pm »
You should ask if that is REALLY necessary?

I don't mean to sound hoggish, but this discussion has already been done a gazillion times. You can't model reality in this engine as it was RL, you have to play by the rules of the game...this means that you scale upon guys that see 20 squares apart, can fall from 9m heights without a scratch and when hit by hi pressure waves do not nudge an inch (though they may die)

Oh and there are PLASMA weapons weghting few pounds, right now we can't hold a fusion core straght...

Just sayin'...I love you mod King, since it is so weel done on the FUN aspect of the game, keeping a somewhat ECELLENT balance (HWP were though thou, :P ).

But going into KJ calculations to transmute them in "perfect" scores does not PLAY ALONG THE GAME, and you burn out on unnecessary work.

But this not to say that what's been discussed is uninteresting (!), still I think that some topics are way over OXCOM head.

Oh btw, other night I couldn' comment but I also WANT the small launcher that fires hi-tech explosives  ;D