the 80 item limit

[Jstank]

Didn't the item limit have other ramifications as well. Say you have 60 items on the floor of the sky ranger. Then you killed 10 aliens who dropped 20 items. Wouldn't some of the corpses disappear due to the arbitrary item limit.  This bug may not seem like a big deal until you think about capturing a commander....

If what you're saying is true then shouldn't you have to choose what items you want to carry home with you based on the item limit?


Just a thought...

[moriarty]

Isn't there already a weight limit - soldiers can only carry so much, and the skyranger can only contain a certain amount too. Or have I missed something?

soldiers - yes

craft - no

currently, it is possible to load a craft with everything you have in your base.

I agree with the OP. while the 80-item-limit is very artificial, some kind of limit does add to the decision-making part of the game. It is kind of hard to implement this in a way that is consistent with the vanilla feeling though... so the "advanced option" approach would probably be best.

I vote for the following:

advanced option: loadout limits:
1) (default) 80 item limit for craft, no limit for base defense
2) (vanilla) 80 item limit for all missions
3) no item limits
4) craft loadouts limited by weight


my reasoning: some people might actually want a "full vanilla" feeling, hence #2.
item limit in base defense makes no sense at all, hence #1 (as-vanilla-as-possible-without-being-really stupid)
we don't have engine limitations, hence #3
for a "realistic" approach, an equipment weight restriction makes the most sense, hence #4

(for #4, perhaps it would make sense to calculate the weight limit by multiplying available soldier spaces by a certain "equipment weight per soldier" number? I wouldn't want to add another number to the craft ruleset, so this is probably the easiest solution)

[Falko]

I wouldn't want to add another number to the craft ruleset, so this is probably the easiest solution)

why? do we have a item weight or a item size (both are defined for items weight - how much can a user carry, size how much space in storage is used) only if we use the size item-parameter make the inclusion of soldier-spaces any sense)
an ruleset entry "cancarryspace/weight:-1" = -1 default = infinity
adding to that comes you add the craft-weapons to the weight/space requirements
that way a mod that makes plasmabeam or fusion launcher heavier/bigger so it cant be used an interceptor but only on newer crafts (firestorm has no soldier places)

[moriarty]

why? do we have a item weight or a item size (both are defined for items weight - how much can a user carry, size how much space in storage is used) only if we use the size item-parameter make the inclusion of soldier-spaces any sense)
an ruleset entry "cancarryspace/weight:-1" = -1 default = infinity
adding to that comes you add the craft-weapons to the weight/space requirements
that way a mod that makes plasmabeam or fusion launcher heavier/bigger so it cant be used an interceptor but only on newer crafts (firestorm has no soldier places)

I'm not sure I get what you are saying. I was trying to suggest an easy way to define how much equipment a craft can carry - so we don't have to go and define a value for every craft (including updating all modded and new craft!). My proposal is that every craft can carry a certain weight of equipment per soldier it can carry. A craft that carries a maximum of 20 soldiers can carry twice as much stuff as a craft that carries a maximum of 10 soldiers. simple as that.

factoring the inventory size of the item into that makes everything unnecessarily complicated IMHO.

you are suggesting that the craft weapons should also be factored into the weight the craft can carry? now that's an interesting point, but something completely different... it would also make sense that for example plasma beams can only be used by craft with UFO power sources...

[Falko]

so we don't have to go and define a value for every craft (including updating all modded and new craft!).

For that we have default values
and this default values should be "infinity" (-1)
exactly because nobody will update all existing mods

[moriarty]

so assuming you want to play with reasonable limitations, you have to manually change the values for the default craft, or create a ruleset that modifies the default craft. and if you also want to use mods, you have to go through each craft ruleset (or, if the craft is part of a larger mod, through those huge rulesets as well) and manually add a reasonable value for each craft.

I think my approach would be easier, and even believable to a certain degree. it is reasonable to assume that a troop carrier is designed so that a certain weight is assumed per "soldier + equipment", because that is what engineers do when designing stuff.

[Falko]

you think the default should be some arbitrary limit
i think the default should be limitless
that is (just) a matter of opinion and its unlikely that you can change my mind

[Aldorn]

so assuming you want to play with reasonable limitations, you have to manually change the values for the default craft, or create a ruleset that modifies the default craft. and if you also want to use mods, you have to go through each craft ruleset (or, if the craft is part of a larger mod, through those huge rulesets as well) and manually add a reasonable value for each craft.

I think my approach would be easier, and even believable to a certain degree. it is reasonable to assume that a troop carrier is designed so that a certain weight is assumed per "soldier + equipment", because that is what engineers do when designing stuff.

I agree with Falko, I would have made a similar proposition

Reality is that OpenXcom is now limitless, the best way to add such an option is to define a default value that does not change this behaviour

Regarding your arguments of many modifications to be made, if someone want to apply a limitation, I am 90% sure it will not be a problem for him to upgrade all mods, as far has he will be so happy to have this possibility

[moriarty]

hmm, wait a second, we are obviously arguing past each other here... I was suggesting "default" as "80 items" because it is vanilla. I don't mind setting "default" to "no limit", but when this whole project was started, the primary goal was "re-create vanilla". removing the 80-item-limitation was seen as "removing an engine limitation", but strong points have been made here that having a limitation is actually a part of the game mechanics that makes sense in itself.

yes, the limitation thing is totally personal opinion, but in that case we have always gone with "default=vanilla".

I was then suggesting that we don't add a limit per craft, because I think that would complicate matters. Instead we should come up with a formula that allows us to assign a reasonable limit for each craft (already existing and yet-to-be-designed) that makes sense and can be determined from existing data.

so, Falko, what exactly do you want to do? leave everything as it is, despite the valid points brought up in this thread? if no, do you really want to add yet another ruleset item for each craft? or perhaps you have a completely different and better idea?

[EDIT:]
oh, and I'd love to make "my idea / weight based limit" the default option, but vanilla behavior has always been the main goal...

[Falko]

in my opinion the 80 items limit were more bug then feature (its a bit of a grey area)
again i am not against creating some limit (i even suggested using the weight/size parameter instead just number 5 rifle clips are smaller than one blaster launcher)
but as i already said (based on my understanding of "bug or feature") i think the dfault should be limitless
in regard to vanilla: i have so many options enabled (even without mods) that i would not want to play pure vanilla anymore

[Tarvis]

The 80 item limit was a limitation more than a feature. Here's my rationale behind this conclusion:

• In the base defense, the game has the same 80-item limit, but there you'd just arbitrarily get the first 80 items in alphabetical order. This behavior should NOT be re-implemented.
• It was based on number of items, irrespective of their size. This indicates that it was because they had a limited array to store items. It would be much more logical as a game mechanic to base it off of weight or size.
• This would make all crafts have the same amount of storage space, which doesn't make much sense.

But, I do agree that there should be some limit.
If it was re-implemented, it should be based on weight, because a pistol clip should not take the same amount of space as rocket launchers. I also think each craft should have their own amount of storage (Firestorm < Skyranger < Avenger). Otherwise what's the point of the "Space Available" field if it's infinite?

[Solarius Scorch]

I'm not sure which option would be best, but if there would be a weight system, then I strongly support the "x kg per soldier" version. I agree that it would be easiest to code in, wouldn't require mod update and is reasonable.

[Tarvis]

I disagree, I think the weight should be based on craft. Of course, soldiers would reduce how much weight is available since they also take up space.

[Solarius Scorch]

I disagree, I think the weight should be based on craft. Of course, soldiers would reduce how much weight is available since they also take up space.

OK, then we need to add a new variable to every craft. No big deal, but what about old rulesets? There should be at least a default value that applies when there's no specified max weight.

Furthermore, if we go down to this level of detail, then we need to specify weight of each armour, for example:

Personal Armour: 10 kg
Power Suit: 120 kg
Flying Suit: 130 kg

Plus 80 kg per person.

But then what about new, custom armours? Should we assume a default value too? What would it be, since it can vary so much?

And what about tanks? Do they have a constant weight, say 200 kg? Then what about custom tanks that are obviously different, like the 1x1 scout drone by Arpia?

As you can see, counting the exact weight is extremely problematic, and would probably be tedious for the player too. I say screw this and let's assume a per soldier value (soldier equipment only).

[Tarvis]

Armors already have a weight value, don't they?

And the problem with per-soldier weight is that then you can't bring extra equipment to leave on the Skyranger then, plus it doesn't make much logical sense when ignoring game constraints