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Author Topic: [COMPILATION] Final Mod Pack (FMP)  (Read 1612753 times)

Offline pilot00

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1335 on: April 24, 2015, 02:54:47 am »
Version 1.2 is online.


  • All craft cost money now (because maintenance).
  • Fixed the string with Stormtrooper Armour Repair.
  • Scout Drone's Reactions brought up to 90, because it's so small and cute and inconspicuous, as well as made the smoke effect bigger.
  • Enhanced Miniguns and Multi-Launcher.
  • New icons for the Skymarshall.

I especially encourage you to give the miniguns a second chance. ;)

Only if you make them researchable and costing alien alloys to build. And slightly lower their strength requirement (because alloys). I dont remember back in the day mingun totting troopers :P

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1336 on: April 24, 2015, 04:11:10 am »
Only if you make them researchable and costing alien alloys to build. And slightly lower their strength requirement (because alloys). I dont remember back in the day mingun totting troopers :P

The strength requirement is so you can't have minigun totting troopers. Not until a months or two into the campaign, where fighting alien and sniffing plasma turns your scared newbies into competent shock troopers. It makes perfect sense.

Online Meridian

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1337 on: April 24, 2015, 10:48:25 am »
Version 1.2 is online.


  • All craft cost money now (because maintenance).
  • Fixed the string with Stormtrooper Armour Repair.
  • Scout Drone's Reactions brought up to 90, because it's so small and cute and inconspicuous, as well as made the smoke effect bigger.
  • Enhanced Miniguns and Multi-Launcher.
  • New icons for the Skymarshall.

I especially encourage you to give the miniguns a second chance. ;)

Wow, this is the best update so far... it changes everything I was complaining about in the last 2 episodes and also things I will be complaining about in the next 3 episodes... I even checked if I didn't publish the episodes too early lol... but I guess Solarius can just read minds... yeah, that must be it.

So, my feedback:
1. Craft maintenance... excellent job on that! I really like that all craft now cost something. What I like even more is that they don't cost too much. For example it was profitable to sell Raven(s) at the end of the month and manufacture them again at the beginning of the next month... now such craziness is not possible. Also, I will probably start building more craft and shoot down UFOs :-) Until now it felt like waste of money (on craft maintenance)... Once again, this change is AWESOME!
2. I see you have changed smoke power of scout tank from 55 to 60... and I thought, wtf that will not help... but then I checked smoke grenade and it has also power 60... uhm, what? Is there really such a difference between 55 and 60? I couldn't test it yet.... but I remember that smoke grenade does a MUCH bigger smoke cloud than scout tank.... does it depend also on something else than power??? Btw. reactions 90 are fine, I would gladly accept even 70-80, if you still think it's too much.
3. I will definitely try miniguns again! Even though I said few episodes ago the opposite ;-)
4. I may even try multi-launcher again! Even tho I said the opposite last episode ;-)
5. Thank you so much for update of STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS_UFOPEDIA... it confused me a lot, now it's clear
6. nice new sprites for skymarshall!

7. STR_TANK_CANNON's reactions increased from 20 to 200 is just a bug, right?

Offline pilot00

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1338 on: April 24, 2015, 04:28:07 pm »
The strength requirement is so you can't have minigun totting troopers. Not until a months or two into the campaign, where fighting alien and sniffing plasma turns your scared newbies into competent shock troopers. It makes perfect sense.

Yeah tottal perfect sense, because even today in 2015 we have minigun totting troopers using earth science... M8 do you know what will happen to a human if he fires a chain gun like this from the recoil alone? There is no way even a strong human can fire the damn thing without servo assistance and stablilizers and remain as he was. And earth science hasnt made these practical yet asside from fixed platforms or mounted on craft/vehicles. Why would they be in the games time frame without extra research been used by a single guy without assistance?

As to the second part (Not until a month or two). Why would you use a minigun if you have an autocannon with three types of ammo and arguably less requirements to handle or even more exotic weapons dependent on how well you did*? My case rests on making the minigun a decision based on effectiveness and cost as to opposed to high STR no brainer, that you have access from the start (which you wont use later because you would have better options, how many people used the heavy machine gun? I tried but the requirements make it practicly useless).

Hence my alien alloy requirement suggestion (mitigates in theory the recoil and lowers the weight making it able to be handled by a strong guy) and a slight boost to damage to compensate for the matterial and time spend on research. So to sumarise: Experimental weapons + Allien alloys -> Heavy chain guns = Minigun + Light minigun (Had it be on me I would put the auto cannon here as well). IMHO it will make a costly heavy weapon which will have a balance between power output, weight and been able to be used as opposed to forgotten. And having to spend time to research and matterials to build those will make it a desicion as opposed to a freebe for a high STR guy.

The final answer will come from Solarius anyway. This is his mod hence his vision, I am just throwing arguements/ideas.

*To clarify something: I am not the breed known as a power player, and I do understand the need for additions for enjoyments sake. I really do, but I would like to see everything having its practical uses and tradeoffs. Even if its just for fun.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:09:06 pm by pilot00 »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1339 on: April 24, 2015, 05:33:14 pm »
Yeah tottal perfect sense, because even today in 2015 we have minigun totting troopers using earth science... M8 do you know what will happen to a human if he fires a chain gun like this from the recoil alone? There is no way even a strong human can fire the damn thing without servo assistance and stablilizers and remain as he was. And earth science hasnt made these practical yet asside from fixed platforms or mounted on craft/vehicles. Why would they be in the games time frame without extra research been used by a single guy without assistance?

Not true. Both in Predator and Terminator 2 real miniguns were used, so there you have visual evidence it is possible and the recoil isn't as violent as you say. What you won't see is a hidden power cable, running to a 50 kgs battery providing electricity for the gun. However, with 2015 advanced batteries, you could probably bring down the weight of the power source to about 10 kgs or even less, making it more or less portable... however, miniguns aren't used by infantry since they're useless in that role - even if someone could carry and fire it, there is little practical reason to do so. The only viable use for them is to sweep a landing zone and force enemies into cover, that's why they're mounted on US transport helicopters.

Oh yeah and making them lighter would make the recoil stronger, not weaker.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1340 on: April 24, 2015, 06:14:52 pm »
Wow, this is the best update so far... it changes everything I was complaining about in the last 2 episodes and also things I will be complaining about in the next 3 episodes... I even checked if I didn't publish the episodes too early lol... but I guess Solarius can just read minds... yeah, that must be it.

Thanks! I admit I learned a lot from watching your LP, it's a great source of information (I still haven't finished, currently I'm a little after the Hybrids research). And I'm still not done; I need to add more info on the weapons, like amount of bullets, whether it adds Strength, and so on.

1. Craft maintenance... excellent job on that! I really like that all craft now cost something. What I like even more is that they don't cost too much. For example it was profitable to sell Raven(s) at the end of the month and manufacture them again at the beginning of the next month... now such craziness is not possible. Also, I will probably start building more craft and shoot down UFOs :-)

I never thought it would be important at all, so I'm glad I thought about this. :) Well, your LP inspired me again.

2. I see you have changed smoke power of scout tank from 55 to 60... and I thought, wtf that will not help... but then I checked smoke grenade and it has also power 60... uhm, what? Is there really such a difference between 55 and 60?

Yes. The smoke size comes in increments, and 60 is the minimal value for this particular size.

Btw. reactions 90 are fine, I would gladly accept even 70-80, if you still think it's too much.

Doesn't make much of a difference. I just thought 90 would be more or less fine for something that can hide well in grass. (Assuming it's relatively silent.)

3. I will definitely try miniguns again! Even though I said few episodes ago the opposite ;-)
4. I may even try multi-launcher again! Even tho I said the opposite last episode ;-)

:)

5. Thank you so much for update of STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS_UFOPEDIA... it confused me a lot, now it's clear

Thanks. I probably need to fix much more... More feedback will be appreciated.

6. nice new sprites for skymarshall!

It's Dioxine's work. I think I forgot to credit him. D:

7. STR_TANK_CANNON's reactions increased from 20 to 200 is just a bug, right?

Yes. :P I was messing with the small drone and edited the wrong unit.

Yeah tottal perfect sense, because even today in 2015 we have minigun totting troopers using earth science... M8 do you know what will happen to a human if he fires a chain gun like this from the recoil alone? There is no way even a strong human can fire the damn thing without servo assistance and stablilizers and remain as he was. And earth science hasnt made these practical yet asside from fixed platforms or mounted on craft/vehicles. Why would they be in the games time frame without extra research been used by a single guy without assistance?

According to my (limited) military knowledge, the main problem with miniguns was the weight of batteries required for the revolving barrels, which at the time (in the 70's) would be prohibitive. Using the weapon itself would be fine (the Predator movie was relatively sensible here), as long as you were strong and braced yourself (hence the high TU cost).
Nowadays, thanks to advances in power supply technologies (mostly thanks to cell phone batteries and the like) the weight would be fairly small, but the idea for a minigun is no longer on the table because of modern tactics being different (read: Iraq is not Vietnam). But AFAIK it totally could be done. Especially in a game like X-Com.

As to the second part (Not until a month or two). Why would you use a minigun if you have an autocannon with three types of ammo and arguably less requirements to handle or even more exotic weapons dependent on how well you did*? My case rests on making the minigun a decision based on effectiveness and cost as to opposed to high STR no brainer, that you have access from the start (which you wont use later because you would have better options, how many people used the heavy machine gun? I tried but the requirements make it practicly useless).

Heavy machine gun with alloy ammo is pretty savage at long distances. Nevertheless, I recognize that some weapons are less popular than others... It's a matter of careful balance. But I don't really care, I believe that it allows the players to adapt different strategies. Of course, I'm still balancing them to ensure there are no obvious choices... With varied results, but I think I'm slowly getting there (with your help).

Hence my alien alloy requirement suggestion (mitigates in theory the recoil and lowers the weight making it able to be handled by a strong guy) and a slight boost to damage to compensate for the matterial and time spend on research. So to sumarise: Experimental weapons + Allien alloys -> Heavy chain guns = Minigun + Light minigun (Had it be on me I would put the auto cannon here as well). IMHO it will make a costly heavy weapon which will have a balance between power output, weight and been able to be used as opposed to forgotten. And having to spend time to research and matterials to build those will make it a desicion as opposed to a freebe for a high STR guy.

The final answer will come from Solarius anyway. This is his mod hence his vision, I am just throwing arguements/ideas.

*To clarify something: I am not the breed known as a power player, and I do understand the need for additions for enjoyments sake. I really do, but I would like to see everything having its practical uses and tradeoffs. Even if its just for fun.

Duly noted. I think I'll wait a little bit and see how the new weapons are received.

Not true. Both in Predator and Terminator 2 real miniguns were used, so there you have visual evidence it is possible and the recoil isn't as violent as you say. What you won't see is a hidden power cable, running to a 50 kgs battery providing electricity for the gun. However, with 2015 advanced batteries, you could probably bring down the weight of the power source to about 10 kgs or even less, making it more or less portable... however, miniguns aren't used by infantry since they're useless in that role - even if someone could carry and fire it, there is little practical reason to do so. The only viable use for them is to sweep a landing zone and force enemies into cover, that's why they're mounted on US transport helicopters.

Oh yeah and making them lighter would make the recoil stronger, not weaker.

...And there you beat me to it, darn. :) But yeah, that was my line of reasoning. (BTW we haven't discussed it with Dioxine before responding. :) )

Offline pilot00

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1341 on: April 24, 2015, 07:30:59 pm »
Not true. Both in Predator and Terminator 2 real miniguns were used, so there you have visual evidence it is possible and the recoil isn't as violent as you say. What you won't see is a hidden power cable, running to a 50 kgs battery providing electricity for the gun. However, with 2015 advanced batteries, you could probably bring down the weight of the power source to about 10 kgs or even less, making it more or less portable... however, miniguns aren't used by infantry since they're useless in that role - even if someone could carry and fire it, there is little practical reason to do so. The only viable use for them is to sweep a landing zone and force enemies into cover, that's why they're mounted on US transport helicopters.

Oh yeah and making them lighter would make the recoil stronger, not weaker.

Ok you are saying to me that Swatz actually fired that thing? Sorry but I dont buy it that is possible for a single human to fire it even when braced. If it was even with the combined weight to be around 30-40 kg it would be enough to lay waste a whole area and it would be the perfect heavy weapon for squad deployment, which is not the case. I believe as it is the weapon is ideal as mounted but I cannot believe (I Dont know the specifics) that a human can possibly keep it stable to fire by himself. And that comes from having fired a (quite limited I admit) number of military rifles myself.
:)

And you might be true that the thing making it lighter will increase the recoil, I havent thought this through. Well, let the strength requirements be the same then.

Anyway as I said, I am just voicing some thoughts loudly not demanding anything.

EDIT: An intresting read on the problems of it:

https://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 07:42:08 pm by pilot00 »

Offline arrakis69ct

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1342 on: April 24, 2015, 07:56:18 pm »
remember that he game is in 1999 year, in this year the batteries are niquel cadmio and starting in global day to day

may be a second stage of miniguns with less kg and more power, and alloy ammo.... may be.....

Offline Savior20061

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1343 on: April 24, 2015, 11:40:22 pm »
Not sure what I'm doing wrong. I unzipped the file and copied the main files to OpenXCOM data but it isn't working.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1344 on: April 25, 2015, 12:34:15 am »
Sorry to hear that, but:
- Is there a specific error? Can you post it?
- What OS are you using?
- What Openxcom version are you using? 1.0, nightly? (must be nightly)
- Have you enabled the mod in the game menu?
- Have you copied the files correctly, ie. MAPS to MAPS, TERRAIN to TERRAIN etc.?

Sorry, but a simple "it doesn't work" isn't going to get you much help. I need more details.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1345 on: April 25, 2015, 01:34:39 am »
Yeah, in the movies they fired it at much reduced RPM rate, naturally. They did fire it though.

A perfect squad weapon, though? Hardly. What is good in firing more bullets if the enemies are already hidden. You need weapons either to kill an exposed enemy or supress him, and minigun is an overkill (while being cumbersome as hell) in both roles. As for artillery role (to annihilate enemies), forget it, though. Even a 1000 bullets isn't enough to do any serious damage to infantry in cover over a say, 100x100 meter area. That's about 1 bullet per 10 square meters. You really need a LOT more firepower to really sweep such an area (and we have rockets to do that trick).

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1346 on: April 25, 2015, 02:43:42 am »
Pilot00, I agree with you on many points. Part of the issue is that the rocket launcher usurps the role of the minigun. In real life, rocket launcher backblast means that it could never be used to clear a landing zone like it is used in Xcom. Because XCom rocket launchers can be fired inside the craft, there's no reason to use the minigun to clear the way.

Theoretically miniguns would be good at killing swarms of terror units, but XCom can just throw heavy explosive packs instead. The minigun is inherently awkward.

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1347 on: April 25, 2015, 02:46:04 am »
As it goes, I'm happy with the direction Solarius seems to be going. The miniguns were definitely underused and the multilauncher never made that much sense. Adding craft maintenance makes money tighter, which adds some challenge to the strategic layer.

Offline Savior20061

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1348 on: April 25, 2015, 05:05:27 am »
Ok, sorry for the lack of details.

Windows.

I believe I have the latest nightly thingy from the list.

The mod doesn't show up in the game menu. I assume it's gonna read either FMP or Final Mod Pack.

I copied MAPS, Terrain, etc,. at once and pasted it directly into the OpenXCOM folder. Maybe that is the problem? I had to do it separatel? Maybe I done goofed?

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #1349 on: April 25, 2015, 05:11:16 am »
it goes in the data folder