Cool loophole if your general stores are full

[Yankes]

From engine perspective there is none, you can put it on any building and engine should handle it.
Only problem is user and popup for that is very hard to display all required information what exactly is used.

There are 7 basic properties that building provide and up to 64 base functions, there is nearly not place to fit all this on screen at once in some complex cases.

[Solarius Scorch]

From engine perspective there is none, you can put it on any building and engine should handle it.
Only problem is user and popup for that is very hard to display all required information what exactly is used.

There are 7 basic properties that building provide and up to 64 base functions, there is nearly not place to fit all this on screen at once in some complex cases.

Right, I know, I wasn't asking about technicals. I wonder about what would be the best design.

[Meridian]

There's no right or wrong answer to such question.
Depends on how important the storage micromanagement is in your mod's intended metagame (and/or design).


If I was making my mod, this would be on the absolute lowest possible priority.
After observing some playthroughs, I'd try to estimate the average comfortable capacity needed per base, let's say X. I would then have two buildings: 1x1 general stores with capacity X/3 and 2x2 large stores with capacity X*2. No other buildings with storage capacity.

But that's just one opinion.


Btw. I'm trying to think of any other game, where players would have to fight storage limitations in such manner, but I can't really think of any. Is there anything like this out there? I can think of games having similar concepts as living quarters limits, but nothing similar to storage limits.

[Solarius Scorch]

There's no right or wrong answer to such question.
Depends on how important the storage micromanagement is in your mod's intended metagame (and/or design).


If I was making my mod, this would be on the absolute lowest possible priority.
After observing some playthroughs, I'd try to estimate the average comfortable capacity needed per base, let's say X. I would then have two buildings: 1x1 general stores with capacity X/3 and 2x2 large stores with capacity X*2. No other buildings with storage capacity.

But that's just one opinion.

Thank you, this is helpful.

Btw. I'm trying to think of any other game, where players would have to fight storage limitations in such manner, but I can't really think of any. Is there anything like this out there? I can think of games having similar concepts as living quarters limits, but nothing similar to storage limits.

The only thing that comes to my mind (apart from some X-Com clones, Apocalypse etc.) are some space strategies, where you had to build special infrastructure for holding large amounts of resources, like for example Stellaris.

[Yankes]

Or Factorio where whole game focus on storage and production.

[Meridian]

I haven't played either of those

So, how did they solve the issue in those games?

[Solarius Scorch]

I haven't played either of those

So, how did they solve the issue in those games?

You lose any surplus over your cap. Perhaps in some cases you are refunded in money, but I can't recall an exact example of this.

[Yankes]

I haven't played either of those

So, how did they solve the issue in those games?

build planet size container

And for more serious answer research eat nearly all items like black hole, and if you have overflow of items it will block production.
Some mods add option to have building that remove unwanted items from game too.

[Vakrug]

OK, let me simply ask: what would be good guidelines for setting storage space on buildings?

My rule of thumb would be: if a building require (directly on indirectly) some items to be operational, then that building might have storage capacity. Hangars holds planes that require ammunition, so might have storage. Living quartiers holds soldiers and soldiers wear armor, so might have storage. Workshops probably also might have storage. Grav Shield definitely should not have storage.

Btw. I'm trying to think of any other game, where players would have to fight storage limitations in such manner, but I can't really think of any.

Minecraft! Especially player's inventory, that have not changed since the release of the game.

So, how did they solve the issue in those games?

Before "solving the problem" one should ask a question: how panful inventory management should be in the first place?

And by the way, there is one non-intuitive feature related with this topic: when you "build on top", that building that you are building on top on gets disabled. I wish it was more clear.

[Meridian]

Minecraft! Especially player's inventory, that have not changed since the release of the game.

Minecraft's inventory was huge compared to xcom's inventory already since the beginning.

And since the introduction of shulker boxes in Minecraft v1.11, the minecraft inventory became practically endless.

I can't think of a better example of practically endless inventory than Minecraft

Before "solving the problem" one should ask a question: how panful inventory management should be in the first place?

If you ask my personal opinion, it shouldn't be painful at all.

I'd welcome if the modders made their storage rooms practically endless.

How painful would you like it to be?

[Vakrug]

How painful would you like it to be?

This question should be answered by modders in the first place. Storage is a game mechanics and, like any other game mechanics, it is supposed to be used to provide some interesting challenges and participate in decision making. Also it is part of game's realism aspect. If a mod doesn't have something in mind with regards of storage, then this mechanics should be abolished like any other unused game's mechanics.

My general thoughts about that are the following:

• Player should not be allowed to have every item in large quantity "just in case". This will eliminate planning.
• Player should not be allowed to have infinite items in a craft, though the default 80 cap is too small, indeed. The most logical solution would be to assign storage capacity to crafts like we have with warehouses, that is not the item limit, but actual space limit. (Bonus thought: you can take more items, but less units.)
• Next thought comes with the idea, that a player should not be allowed to sell aliens stuff to global market, and a player should be much more dependent on founding then it is now. And that thought is infinite storage provided by a council. Accessed with transfer items menu. 0 time to store, 72 hours to retrieve. That is a way a player could temporarily get rid of unusable plasma guns and regain them after he figures out how to use them.

[Juku121]

I generally concur with Meridian. If I was a (public) modder, I'd make small stores relatively generous (at least 3-4 times the limits that are currently plagueing the streamers) and big stores virtually limitless. Losing 4 base squares to storage is a big enough penalty in itself.

Storage is a game mechanics and, like any other game mechanics, it is supposed to be used to provide some interesting challenges and participate in decision making. Also it is part of game's realism aspect.

I'd say it's the other way around. Storage and logistics micromanagement are there to make the game 'realistic', not to provide particularly interesting choices. That's why many other X-Com-style games abolish that mechanic, in part or in full. Some part of it can also be attributed to the legacy of squad-level games virtually always having inventory management.

Player should not be allowed to have every item in large quantity "just in case". This will eliminate planning.

Getting that large quantity into the stores requires planning in the first place. Unless it's loot. And if your mod has a loot problem, trying to solve it via storage is ass-backwards.

Next thought comes with the idea, that a player should not be allowed to sell aliens stuff to global market...

RIP Piratez economy?

The market also doesn't need to be global fluff-wise. Maybe it is exclusively the Council itself who buys your stuff, or at least the alien tech.

...and a player should be much more dependent on founding then it is now.

We have an example of a mod that places a stronger emphasis on funding as opposed to looting, and eliminates manufacturing for profit entirely - the X-Com Files. Can't say I'm a particular fan of this approach since in practice all this does is kill strategic variety. YMMV.

[Vakrug]

Losing 4 base squares to storage is a big enough penalty in itself.

Oh, no! Now I cannot fit everything in one base! Bad game!  :'(

Storage and logistics micromanagement are there to make the game 'realistic', not to provide particularly interesting choices.

I don't know about the original DOS game, but in XPiratez there is a lot stuff going on around storage. So it can be done. And that someone don't like to think ahead about what to sell to free space doesn't automatically means this is not interesting mechanics.

Getting that large quantity into the stores requires planning in the first place. Unless it's loot.

Of course it is loot! What else it can be?

The market also doesn't need to be global fluff-wise. Maybe it is exclusively the Council itself who buys your stuff, or at least the alien tech.

Which makes no sense. We are saving the world here, not participating in competition to gather as much plasma cannons as possible, especially if you consider that those cannons are locked and cannot be used by anyone.

We have an example of a mod that places a stronger emphasis on funding as opposed to looting, and eliminates manufacturing for profit entirely - the X-Com Files. Can't say I'm a particular fan of this approach since in practice all this does is kill strategic variety. YMMV.

What strategy variety? Ability to print alien alloys non-stop? This is an exploit, not a variety.

[Juku121]

Now I cannot fit everything in one base! Bad game!

We could never fit everything into one base even in the OG (full-on base defenses, mind shields and defensive layouts at the very least). It is not bad. But it's a(n interesting) choice you can make: either not worry about storage for that base, or do something else (and not everything else) with these 3 other squares.

I don't know about the original DOS game, but in XPiratez there is a lot stuff going on around storage. So it can be done.

There is a lot of fiddling going around with storage, plus the entire slavery mechanic that's aimed at raising storage limits. But I don't recall anything particularly interesting about the storage limits themselves.

Piratez is also very much an atypical example. A lot of it is based on resource rarity, whereas the OG and most mods presume you're part of a working logistics network.

And that someone don't like to think ahead about what to sell to free space doesn't automatically means this is not interesting mechanics.

It is not about 'thinking ahead', since no matter what you do, efficient storage management means dancing around the storage limit and all the micro this entails. Most people don't find this particularly engaging. If you do, more power to you, but leave the rest of us out of this, 'kay?

Of course it is loot! What else it can be?

Most of my stores in my current XCF save are full of arms, ammo and other munitions bought on the market or manyfactured myself, HWP and aircraft ammo.

Which makes no sense. We are saving the world here, not participating in competition to gather as much plasma cannons as possible, especially if you consider that those cannons are locked and cannot be used by anyone.

How is that even relevant to the quote? Since the cannons can't be used, it doesn't matter if it's the Council or non-Council entities buying them, it's still essentially making a profit on said 'competition'.

Also note that saving the world is not a given. In Piratez, the world can go fuck itself, any saving that might happen is pretty much incidental. In XCF, we're pawns in a game of conspiracy where the invasion itself is increasingly a secondary matter and there are Sectoids on the Council!

What strategy variety? Ability to print alien alloys non-stop? This is an exploit, not a variety.

Varied funding sources, for one.

And it also is variety, variety of sources for said alloys.

If something is an exploit, it needs fine-tuning, not chucking the entire mechanical infrastructure it operates in. You can make alloys impossible to manufacture, you can make them costly and require a lot of tech (the XCF answer), you can just tune manufacturing times and costs to make it not worth it compared to looting spaceships, you can even require a 5x5 facility to manufacture alloys if that's how you want to roll.



Finally, this is all pretty much starting to look like trolling to me, so I'm not sure there's a point in continuing.

[Chuckebaby]

I generally concur with Meridian. If I was a (public) modder, I'd make small stores relatively generous (at least 3-4 times the limits that are currently plagueing the streamers) and big stores virtually limitless. Losing 4 base squares to storage is a big enough penalty in itself.

Agreed, the only real option I have found for keep large amounts of storage is either:

A- Building 2 large general stores: which is a lot of real estate and tbh, by 75% game completion, they are close to packed.
B- Creating a storage base: But a storage base needs to be guarded by experienced soldiers or it will be lost in a base attack.