OpenXcom Forum
OpenXcom => Open Feedback => Topic started by: Chuckebaby on October 25, 2022, 04:32:33 pm
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Stumbled upon this by accident but figured I would share.
If you are anything like me and you hoard Elerium and Alien alloy's your stores are overflowing and have no more room.
I rely heavily on high explosives (to clear brush, snuff out aliens hiding in shacks, etc.)
So when my stores are full and can not purchase anymore (do to size limits). I create a small base with one Skyraider set up to make delivery's.
This base is protected by 8 solders (who's stats increase due to base attacks until defenses can be researched and built).
The base is good for small recon and also purchasing your high explosives, then load these high explosives on to the Skyraider, transfer the Skyraider to said base (which has exceeded it's store limits).
Once the Skyraider arrives, unload high explosives and transfer the ship back to the small recon base.
Hope this helps.
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Nice trick! I never thought of that one before.
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A very loosely related "trick" on store capacity:
Manufacturing does not check if there is capacity in the stores or in the base to store manufactured goods. So I think it's entirely possible to manufacture hundreds or thousands of items on a base with zero or very little storage space, yet magically they fit in the base and can be transferred away from the base as needed. So, no need for storage space on bases where you just manufacture stuff that you then transfer to other bases as needed.
In normal games this often comes up after missions in the debriefing purchase/manufacture used goods screen, when you notice you cannot purchase replacement stuff for your base due to the lack of space, but you can still manufacture equivalent or other goods, even though the stores are already overflowing with junk.
Not sure if this is worth "fixing". I suppose the manufacturing code could be adopted so that upon starting to manufacture each item, the game would check if there is still free space for it (but if the space gets filled while manufacturing, that would have impact only when starting the next item).
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Not sure if this is worth "fixing".
No, it is absolutely not worth fixing.
I am constantly "fixing" stuff related to enforcing storage limits (since 2016) and it is the deepest sinkhole I've ever seen or could even imagine.
And every fix introduces 2 new issues.
Let it go.
Also, I really don't see what every modder sees on this feature.
Literally hundreds and hundreds of people across all mods complaining about bugs, inconsistencies, hard-to-understand limits, user unfriendliness and general frustration.
Not a month goes by without newcomers and veterans alike asking about why cannot they dismantle a... let's say Grav Shield... well, because somebody thought it would be a cool and tremendously useful idea to give it a 5 storage capacity. I can store more stuff in the toilet room in my tiny apartment!
Do yourself a favor, and increase the storage capacity of basic General Stores, to twice of what you think you need.
You're supposed to enjoy the game, not look for "cool loopholes" for uncool limitations.
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my take (in my build, am aware what a mindf it is to dicker with 'storage' everywhere)
So I just do a check each (uh, forget exactly what the time-period is, but short like 5min) and pop a notice that "Stores are full @ baseX" -- it's extremely irritating while playing. But it works, i do whatever has to be done to reduce storage to legal limits.
much easier to implement than checking and dealing with loading and unloading craft, manufacturing, removing buildings etc
to each his/her own though, just putting it out there ...
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OXC/OXCE does the check every full hour.
It's just as irritating as every 5 minutes.
And it doesn't help at all... maybe you are an exception... but literally all players I've seen on youtube and twitch get this popup basically all the time. Then they sell just enough stuff to be able to continue (because everyone naturally wants to keep the stuff they fought so hard for), meaning after the next mission or after something is manufactured, they get the popup again. And again, and again, and again...
This feature alone has collectively wasted centuries of our lives.
My heart is broken every time I see players struggling with it.
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Do yourself a favor, and increase the storage capacity of basic General Stores, to twice of what you think you need.
You're supposed to enjoy the game, not look for "cool loopholes" for uncool limitations.
I'm really hoping to learn some modding myself in the future. I've been extremely inspired by all of you. I can't thank everyone enough.
I think stores are great for the challenge in the game but unfortunately, I'm always running out it no matter how many G stores I build.
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I know modding this game is no easy task though, I hope I don't I sound like this would be an easy thing. I also wouldn't even attempt any mods until I know exactly what I was doing. And to be totally honest, I'm not even close to that point. I just recently started analyzing folders and looking at this as a future project.
This is possibly my favorite game ever. Lets face it, this game doesn't stack up well in present times (with more flashy style graphics).
But I've never played anything like it. It's depth, it's total unfairness sometimes :-) This game can be relentless. Like a puzzle.
But I am very fond of this game. Like no other.
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And again, and again, and again...
also dock them $50 .. $1000 bucks each time, that'll get their goats
;)
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OXC/OXCE does the check every full hour.
It's just as irritating as every 5 minutes.
And it doesn't help at all... maybe you are an exception... but literally all players I've seen on youtube and twitch get this popup basically all the time. Then they sell just enough stuff to be able to continue (because everyone naturally wants to keep the stuff they fought so hard for), meaning after the next mission or after something is manufactured, they get the popup again. And again, and again, and again...
This feature alone has collectively wasted centuries of our lives.
My heart is broken every time I see players struggling with it.
Can we have a base mod that boosts the General Stores storage capacity to 250 (an actually sensible value)?
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Not a month goes by without newcomers and veterans alike asking about why cannot they dismantle a... let's say Grav Shield... well, because somebody thought it would be a cool and tremendously useful idea to give it a 5 storage capacity. I can store more stuff in the toilet room in my tiny apartment!
This is what happens when you have a message with a style "unknown error for an unknown reason". Was it so hard to write how exactly the building is used (storage, living, other building requirements...)? After all this information is already gathered when such message popped.
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This is what happens when you have a message with a style "unknown error for an unknown reason". Was it so hard to write how exactly the building is used (storage, living, other building requirements...)? After all this information is already gathered when such message popped.
Yes, it is very hard.
There is an unlimited number of reasons why a facility cannot be dismantled in OXCE, depending on modder's taste.
Good luck creating infinitely many non-generic error messages...
Next time, before you accuse us of having an IQ of a bacteria, maybe try to do it yourself first.
PS: This is what happens, when you allow modders so much freedom that you can't even produce frikkin' error messages.
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PS: This is what happens, when you allow modders so much freedom that you can't even produce frikkin' error messages.
Providing freedom to introduce some constraints AND not enforcing modders to implement appropriate error messages when that constraint is violated was definitely a bad decision.
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Providing freedom to introduce some constraints AND not enforcing modders to implement appropriate error messages when that constraint is violated was definitely a bad decision.
Yeah, I agree, I will remove all those modding options in the next version.
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OK, let me simply ask: what would be good guidelines for setting storage space on buildings? Should storage be provided strictly by facilities for which it is their primary function (general stores) only?
Is it OK if a hangar provides some storage space? I added some storage to hangars to enable interception bases with no crew, and you need a few storage points for craft weapons ammo (and sometimes to send craft weapons there).
I understand these are not binary questions, but I think the problem requires some consultation.
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From engine perspective there is none, you can put it on any building and engine should handle it.
Only problem is user and popup for that is very hard to display all required information what exactly is used.
There are 7 basic properties that building provide and up to 64 base functions, there is nearly not place to fit all this on screen at once in some complex cases.
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From engine perspective there is none, you can put it on any building and engine should handle it.
Only problem is user and popup for that is very hard to display all required information what exactly is used.
There are 7 basic properties that building provide and up to 64 base functions, there is nearly not place to fit all this on screen at once in some complex cases.
Right, I know, I wasn't asking about technicals. I wonder about what would be the best design.
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There's no right or wrong answer to such question.
Depends on how important the storage micromanagement is in your mod's intended metagame (and/or design).
If I was making my mod, this would be on the absolute lowest possible priority.
After observing some playthroughs, I'd try to estimate the average comfortable capacity needed per base, let's say X. I would then have two buildings: 1x1 general stores with capacity X/3 and 2x2 large stores with capacity X*2. No other buildings with storage capacity.
But that's just one opinion.
Btw. I'm trying to think of any other game, where players would have to fight storage limitations in such manner, but I can't really think of any. Is there anything like this out there? I can think of games having similar concepts as living quarters limits, but nothing similar to storage limits.
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There's no right or wrong answer to such question.
Depends on how important the storage micromanagement is in your mod's intended metagame (and/or design).
If I was making my mod, this would be on the absolute lowest possible priority.
After observing some playthroughs, I'd try to estimate the average comfortable capacity needed per base, let's say X. I would then have two buildings: 1x1 general stores with capacity X/3 and 2x2 large stores with capacity X*2. No other buildings with storage capacity.
But that's just one opinion.
Thank you, this is helpful.
Btw. I'm trying to think of any other game, where players would have to fight storage limitations in such manner, but I can't really think of any. Is there anything like this out there? I can think of games having similar concepts as living quarters limits, but nothing similar to storage limits.
The only thing that comes to my mind (apart from some X-Com clones, Apocalypse etc.) are some space strategies, where you had to build special infrastructure for holding large amounts of resources, like for example Stellaris.
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Or Factorio where whole game focus on storage and production.
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I haven't played either of those :)
So, how did they solve the issue in those games?
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I haven't played either of those :)
So, how did they solve the issue in those games?
You lose any surplus over your cap. :) Perhaps in some cases you are refunded in money, but I can't recall an exact example of this.
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I haven't played either of those :)
So, how did they solve the issue in those games?
build planet size container :D
And for more serious answer research eat nearly all items like black hole, and if you have overflow of items it will block production.
Some mods add option to have building that remove unwanted items from game too.
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OK, let me simply ask: what would be good guidelines for setting storage space on buildings?
My rule of thumb would be: if a building require (directly on indirectly) some items to be operational, then that building might have storage capacity. Hangars holds planes that require ammunition, so might have storage. Living quartiers holds soldiers and soldiers wear armor, so might have storage. Workshops probably also might have storage. Grav Shield definitely should not have storage.
Btw. I'm trying to think of any other game, where players would have to fight storage limitations in such manner, but I can't really think of any.
Minecraft! Especially player's inventory, that have not changed since the release of the game.
So, how did they solve the issue in those games?
Before "solving the problem" one should ask a question: how panful inventory management should be in the first place?
And by the way, there is one non-intuitive feature related with this topic: when you "build on top", that building that you are building on top on gets disabled. I wish it was more clear.
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Minecraft! Especially player's inventory, that have not changed since the release of the game.
Minecraft's inventory was huge compared to xcom's inventory already since the beginning.
And since the introduction of shulker boxes in Minecraft v1.11, the minecraft inventory became practically endless.
I can't think of a better example of practically endless inventory than Minecraft :)
Before "solving the problem" one should ask a question: how panful inventory management should be in the first place?
If you ask my personal opinion, it shouldn't be painful at all.
I'd welcome if the modders made their storage rooms practically endless.
How painful would you like it to be?
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How painful would you like it to be?
This question should be answered by modders in the first place. Storage is a game mechanics and, like any other game mechanics, it is supposed to be used to provide some interesting challenges and participate in decision making. Also it is part of game's realism aspect. If a mod doesn't have something in mind with regards of storage, then this mechanics should be abolished like any other unused game's mechanics.
My general thoughts about that are the following:
- Player should not be allowed to have every item in large quantity "just in case". This will eliminate planning.
- Player should not be allowed to have infinite items in a craft, though the default 80 cap is too small, indeed. The most logical solution would be to assign storage capacity to crafts like we have with warehouses, that is not the item limit, but actual space limit. (Bonus thought: you can take more items, but less units.)
- Next thought comes with the idea, that a player should not be allowed to sell aliens stuff to global market, and a player should be much more dependent on founding then it is now. And that thought is infinite storage provided by a council. Accessed with transfer items menu. 0 time to store, 72 hours to retrieve. That is a way a player could temporarily get rid of unusable plasma guns and regain them after he figures out how to use them.
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I generally concur with Meridian. If I was a (public) modder, I'd make small stores relatively generous (at least 3-4 times the limits that are currently plagueing the streamers) and big stores virtually limitless. Losing 4 base squares to storage is a big enough penalty in itself.
Storage is a game mechanics and, like any other game mechanics, it is supposed to be used to provide some interesting challenges and participate in decision making. Also it is part of game's realism aspect.
I'd say it's the other way around. Storage and logistics micromanagement are there to make the game 'realistic', not to provide particularly interesting choices. That's why many other X-Com-style games abolish that mechanic, in part or in full. Some part of it can also be attributed to the legacy of squad-level games virtually always having inventory management.
Player should not be allowed to have every item in large quantity "just in case". This will eliminate planning.
Getting that large quantity into the stores requires planning in the first place. Unless it's loot. And if your mod has a loot problem, trying to solve it via storage is ass-backwards.
Next thought comes with the idea, that a player should not be allowed to sell aliens stuff to global market...
RIP Piratez economy? :P
The market also doesn't need to be global fluff-wise. Maybe it is exclusively the Council itself who buys your stuff, or at least the alien tech.
...and a player should be much more dependent on founding then it is now.
We have an example of a mod that places a stronger emphasis on funding as opposed to looting, and eliminates manufacturing for profit entirely - the X-Com Files. Can't say I'm a particular fan of this approach since in practice all this does is kill strategic variety. YMMV.
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Losing 4 base squares to storage is a big enough penalty in itself.
Oh, no! Now I cannot fit everything in one base! Bad game! :'(
Storage and logistics micromanagement are there to make the game 'realistic', not to provide particularly interesting choices.
I don't know about the original DOS game, but in XPiratez there is a lot stuff going on around storage. So it can be done. And that someone don't like to think ahead about what to sell to free space doesn't automatically means this is not interesting mechanics.
Getting that large quantity into the stores requires planning in the first place. Unless it's loot.
Of course it is loot! What else it can be?
The market also doesn't need to be global fluff-wise. Maybe it is exclusively the Council itself who buys your stuff, or at least the alien tech.
Which makes no sense. We are saving the world here, not participating in competition to gather as much plasma cannons as possible, especially if you consider that those cannons are locked and cannot be used by anyone.
We have an example of a mod that places a stronger emphasis on funding as opposed to looting, and eliminates manufacturing for profit entirely - the X-Com Files. Can't say I'm a particular fan of this approach since in practice all this does is kill strategic variety. YMMV.
What strategy variety? Ability to print alien alloys non-stop? This is an exploit, not a variety.
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Now I cannot fit everything in one base! Bad game!
We could never fit everything into one base even in the OG (full-on base defenses, mind shields and defensive layouts at the very least). It is not bad. But it's a(n interesting) choice you can make: either not worry about storage for that base, or do something else (and not everything else) with these 3 other squares.
I don't know about the original DOS game, but in XPiratez there is a lot stuff going on around storage. So it can be done.
There is a lot of fiddling going around with storage, plus the entire slavery mechanic that's aimed at raising storage limits. But I don't recall anything particularly interesting about the storage limits themselves.
Piratez is also very much an atypical example. A lot of it is based on resource rarity, whereas the OG and most mods presume you're part of a working logistics network.
And that someone don't like to think ahead about what to sell to free space doesn't automatically means this is not interesting mechanics.
It is not about 'thinking ahead', since no matter what you do, efficient storage management means dancing around the storage limit and all the micro this entails. Most people don't find this particularly engaging. If you do, more power to you, but leave the rest of us out of this, 'kay?
Of course it is loot! What else it can be?
Most of my stores in my current XCF save are full of arms, ammo and other munitions bought on the market or manyfactured myself, HWP and aircraft ammo.
Which makes no sense. We are saving the world here, not participating in competition to gather as much plasma cannons as possible, especially if you consider that those cannons are locked and cannot be used by anyone.
How is that even relevant to the quote? Since the cannons can't be used, it doesn't matter if it's the Council or non-Council entities buying them, it's still essentially making a profit on said 'competition'.
Also note that saving the world is not a given. In Piratez, the world can go fuck itself, any saving that might happen is pretty much incidental. In XCF, we're pawns in a game of conspiracy where the invasion itself is increasingly a secondary matter and there are Sectoids on the Council!
What strategy variety? Ability to print alien alloys non-stop? This is an exploit, not a variety.
Varied funding sources, for one.
And it also is variety, variety of sources for said alloys.
If something is an exploit, it needs fine-tuning, not chucking the entire mechanical infrastructure it operates in. You can make alloys impossible to manufacture, you can make them costly and require a lot of tech (the XCF answer), you can just tune manufacturing times and costs to make it not worth it compared to looting spaceships, you can even require a 5x5 facility to manufacture alloys if that's how you want to roll.
Finally, this is all pretty much starting to look like trolling to me, so I'm not sure there's a point in continuing.
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I generally concur with Meridian. If I was a (public) modder, I'd make small stores relatively generous (at least 3-4 times the limits that are currently plagueing the streamers) and big stores virtually limitless. Losing 4 base squares to storage is a big enough penalty in itself.
Agreed, the only real option I have found for keep large amounts of storage is either:
A- Building 2 large general stores: which is a lot of real estate and tbh, by 75% game completion, they are close to packed.
B- Creating a storage base: But a storage base needs to be guarded by experienced soldiers or it will be lost in a base attack.
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I don't think the original game devs playtested storage very much, or even at all really. The numbers are positively ridiculous. If you were to take a 3D render of the comically small representation of the facility itself from the battlescape and fill it with life-size renders of 50 space units of stuff, it would just be scattered across the floor and wouldn't come close to filling it. But if you ignore realism and go by just gameplay alone, the bare-bones starting items already more than fill your initial general stores. The only reason you had a tiny bit of space left over at the start of the game was because the game didn't count space for the items loaded onto the crafts. The remaining space was about big enough to buy extra ammo and smoke grenades, maybe some electro-flares. But you couldn't actually spend your money and buy the stuff you needed until 10 days went by and your second general stores finally finished. And if you're a veteran player, probably your third and fourth as well.
One of the most annoyingly space-draining items is the 1.5 space avalanche missile. To purchase 4 launchers for your 2 interceptors, with enough ammo to load them and have one spare rack, it costs 40 space units. That's 80% of a general stores just to barely load out your interceptors. But it's not like the avalanche missiles take up too much space. Compared to everything else, the space they take up actually makes sense when you consider how big they are. What doesn't make sense is that apparently the entire available space in your stores can fit against one wall.
It would have been completely reasonable if they had moved the decimal point over and shifted the size of each item down an order of magnitude.
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I realized something last night while I was playing X com files.
In that mod, stores can not be modified. You have to stay under the storage limit (that option is locked).
Looking at it from a new users perspective, because I am new to this game (X com files) I'm not really sure what to keep and what to sell. Sure I know I don't need 30 shotguns. But with the mods where you need to save a lot of elements for future projects, more storage is key.
However, I do totally respect the integrity of the game and how it's mapped out. Let's face it, half the joy of this game is it's difficulties, solving the challenges that are put before us. But like a lot of things, having those options are very useful.
Maybe adding a score penalty to users who have exceeded storage limits instead ?