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Author Topic: Real weapons overhaul discussion  (Read 2972 times)

Offline Eddie

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Real weapons overhaul discussion
« on: May 01, 2021, 05:46:51 pm »
Heya!
So I am working on a weapon overhaul of the early game weapons. Those that have real life counterparts. While changing stats is most often controversial, better sprites are always welcome. So here are my sprites:
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:49:54 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Re: Want to help?
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2021, 05:48:31 pm »
More sprites:

Offline Eddie

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2021, 05:57:24 pm »
Tha mac10 has a better floorob sprite already in the mod that is not used.

The minebea I changed to a 2x2 gun. In case you are interested, these are the stats I am using for it:
(changed value #original value)

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_MINEBEA_UZI
    costBuy: 1200 #600
    costSell: 900 #400
    accuracySnap: 55
    accuracyAuto: 43 #40
    accuracyAimed: 65 #60
    tuSnap: 26 #30
    tuAuto: 32 #40
    tuAimed: 22 #45
    autoRange: 7 #9
    snapRange: 12
    aimRange: 20 #25
    confSnap:
      shots: 3
    twoHanded: true #false
    oneHandedPenalty: 90
    invWidth: 2 #1
    invHeight: 2
    autoShots: 6

  - type: STR_UZI_CLIP
    costBuy: 180 #100
    costSell: 135 #50
    power: 22 #20

extraStrings:
  - type: en-US
    strings:
 STR_MINEBEA_UZI_UFOPEDIA: "This modified micro-Uzi is equipped with a foregrip and a flash suppressor. Used by the Japanese Defense Force, it was also employed by the Kiryu-kai as their basic close quarters combat weapon. Intended for two-handed use, one-handed use is slighly less accurate.{NEWLINE}>Concealable"

The Uzi stats are changed similarly:
Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_UZI
    costBuy: 1100 #450
    costSell: 800 #300
    accuracySnap: 50 #55
    accuracyAuto: 40
    accuracyAimed: 55 #0
    tuSnap: 26 #30
    tuAuto: 40
    tuAimed: 22 #0
    autoRange: 7 #9
    snapRange: 12
    aimRange: 20 #0
    confSnap:
      shots: 3
    twoHanded: false
    autoShots: 8 #6

Autoshot values are based on their real life fire rate. Micro Uzi does 1200 rounds/min, Minebea pm-9 does 1100 rounds/min. One XCOM round is considered 1 second long. Most other guns follow this convention.

The minebea got this special treatment from me, because I always felt it should be a kinda good gun. I mean, the Kiryu-kai used it!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:51:17 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2021, 06:28:05 pm »
Wow, didn't expect that, Eddie. Thanks!

I'll review the graphics later when I have time. Of course, if I end up using some of them, you will be credited properly.

As for the Uzi, it's pretty interesting, but I'd like to ask you to elaborate. As you surely understand, regular Uzi has no aimed shot to give it some niche (dakka dakka not snipin'), and also to distinguish it from the Minebea. I see you've changed it, but I'm not sure what you were going for. I am not arguing here, I'd only like to hear something more about your vision.

Also, should Uzi really cost $1100 when, say, a Skorpion is only $350?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:51:23 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2021, 07:03:45 pm »
I changed the skorpion price too to fit in (850$). For the prices, I actually tried to google them. This is what I came up with. Seems reasonable to me, considering the glock price is 800.
The stats overhaul I am working on does consider the prices of all guns relative to each other. I'm just a bit hesitant to post all the stats now because, you know, different opinions. Also, I am not done yet. With the latest addition of difficulty based sell prices, I have to check all the prices that none have a higher sell price than 75% of buy price. That 75% is what I chose as the limit, so on beginner that is 93% sell price. Beretta clip sell price needs to go down for example.

Why the aimed shot:
I want to prevent a loadout where you carry an Uzi and a pistol, that seems kinda gamey to me. So I want to make the Uzi good enough at range that you would not feel the need to also carry a pistol. It is worse than a pistol at range still.
Also, the AI does not have that option. They only get one gun. So this helps the AI more than it helps the player. Consistently I gave a (crappy) aimed shot to all smgs. Piratez has that as well, so it's not too far out there.

But I welcome the feedback. The optimal case is that you like my stats overhaul and will incorperate it in the mod. More feedback from you means more likely you will approve.

So here are some more stats, m16 and colt commando. For those I am somewhat sure I got the stats right.

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_RIFLE_M16
    accuracyAuto: 55 #45
    accuracySnap: 80 #75
    accuracyAimed: 120 #115
    tuAuto: 34 #36
    tuSnap: 23 #25
    tuAimed: 55
    snapRange: 18 #16
    autoRange: 14 #11

  - type: STR_COLT_COMMANDO
    handSprite: 2096 #Same as m16.
    accuracyAuto: 45 #50
    accuracySnap: 65 #70
    accuracyAimed: 95 #90
    tuAuto: 31 #33
    tuSnap: 24
    tuAimed: 48 #46
    autoRange: 11
    snapRange: 13 #15
    aimRange: 30 #25
    confSnap:
      shots: 2 #1
    autoShots: 4 #3

extraStrings:
  - type: en-US
    strings:
      STR_COLT_COMMANDO: "M4A1"
      STR_COLT_COMMANDO_UFOPEDIA: "The number one choice of all U.S. special operation units. Essentially a more compact M16, the M4A1 is better suited for close range combat than a full size assault rifle. This reduces long range performance, but the rifle is still accurate enough that the U.S. Armed Forces consider making it the standard infantary rifle.{NEWLINE}Purchasing this weapon requires Contact: Cult Arms Dealers and EXALT Operations or Promotion II."

For the m16, I started by using the stats from Piratez (like you recently did with the blackops rifle). Then I increased the power of the autoshot so it has a little more damage output than a colt45 at range ~15 and up. (Again, not wanting you to feel whipping out a pistol for medium range combat is better).
For the Colt Commando, I felt that the 2-shot snap is really needed. So you have more damage output with reaction fire. But the snap should not be better at range than an m16. With these stats, the m16 snap is better at ranges ~25 and up (depending on agent accuracy).
The colt commando has pretty strong stats, but it is still below blackops weapons. I intend it to be one of the strongest promotion I weapons. Considering how popular it is with real life special forces, that seems fitting.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:51:31 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2021, 08:11:02 pm »
I changed the skorpion price too to fit in (850$). For the prices, I actually tried to google them. This is what I came up with. Seems reasonable to me, considering the glock price is 800. (...)

X-Com prices have little in common with real market prices anyway. You'd need to adjust all prices in the game, and I doubt it would even work well.

Why the aimed shot:
I want to prevent a loadout where you carry an Uzi and a pistol, that seems kinda gamey to me. So I want to make the Uzi good enough at range that you would not feel the need to also carry a pistol.

I still don't see a point in doing so, even now... But I also don't think being armed with an SMG and a pistol is too gamey.

Also, the AI does not have that option. They only get one gun. So this helps the AI more than it helps the player. Consistently I gave a (crappy) aimed shot to all smgs. Piratez has that as well, so it's not too far out there.

Yeah, but it's taken into account when making deployments.

But I welcome the feedback. The optimal case is that you like my stats overhaul and will incorperate it in the mod. More feedback from you means more likely you will approve.

So here are some more stats, m16 and colt commando.

Thanks, but to be honest, I'd need the entire 5.56 family together. Without it, I can't even say much. do you have something like this?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:51:37 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2021, 11:01:07 pm »
X-Com prices have little in common with real market prices anyway. You'd need to adjust all prices in the game, and I doubt it would even work well.
The thing is, when I googled the prices some X-Files prices were already remarkably close to what I found. For example the AUG is 2200$ and the m16 is 3000$. These are really close to current real world prices. Of course, these are civilian prices. No idea what government organizations pay.
Sooo... the results this approach gives are a lot better than you would think.

Quote
Thanks, but to be honest, I'd need the entire 5.56 family together. Without it, I can't even say much. do you have something like this?
Of course I have. Neatly sorted in a spreadsheet. This will take some explaining though, I will add that in the next post.

Here is the 5.56 family. Please keep in mind this is work in progress, I have not playtested this enough.

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_RIFLE_M16
    accuracyAuto: 55 #45
    accuracySnap: 80 #75
    accuracyAimed: 120 #115
    tuAuto: 34 #36
    tuSnap: 23 #25
    tuAimed: 55
    snapRange: 18 #16
    autoRange: 14 #11

  - type: STR_RIFLE_L85
    accuracyAuto: 55 #50
    accuracySnap: 75
    accuracyAimed: 110 #100
    tuAuto: 31 #35
    tuSnap: 21 #22
    tuAimed: 51 #55
    tuLoad: 20
    autoRange: 12 #11
    snapRange: 19 #16

  - type: STR_FAMAS
    accuracyAuto: 50 #40
    accuracySnap: 70
    accuracyAimed: 105
    tuAuto: 28 #35
    tuSnap: 19 #20
    tuAimed: 51 #55
    tuLoad: 20
    autoRange: 12 #11
    snapRange: 17 #16

  - type: STR_COLT_COMMANDO
    accuracyAuto: 45 #50
    accuracySnap: 65 #70
    accuracyAimed: 95 #90
    tuAuto: 31 #33
    tuSnap: 24
    tuAimed: 48 #46
    autoRange: 11
    snapRange: 13 #15
    aimRange: 30 #25
    confSnap:
      shots: 2 #1
    autoShots: 4 #3

  - type: STR_STEYR_AUG
    accuracyAuto: 60 #40
    accuracySnap: 80 #75
    accuracyAimed: 115 #105
    tuAuto: 31 #35
    tuSnap: 21 #24
    tuAimed: 51 #60
    snapRange: 20
    autoRange: 13 #11

  - type: STR_G36
    accuracyAuto: 60 #45
    accuracySnap: 85 #75
    accuracyAimed: 125 #115
    tuAuto: 35
    tuSnap: 23 #25
    tuAimed: 55 #60
    snapRange: 22 #20
    autoRange: 15 #11

The guidelines I used were these:
- If it has a scope, it gets more snap range. L85, AUG and G36 have scopes.
- Bullpup means faster to aim, but less accurate at range.
- There are two tiers. M16, Famas and L85 are lower tier. M4A1, AUG and G36 are the higher tier.

The reason behind the two tiers is that the higher tier guns are harder to get. I have only looked this up in the game files, so I might be wrong. G36 is only available from the cult dealers and can not be found as a drop (you could buy it at promotion 2, but since it doesn't drop you can't research it and thus don't get it). AUG needs promotion 2 to buy. M4A1 is used mostly by high ranking Exalt.

The G36 beeing the most accurate is based on that it has probably the best optics and is the newest design (introduced 1997). The AUG is a direct copy of the L85 with +5% acc on everything and +1 auto and snap range. This is mostly based on that it needs promotion 2 to buy.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:51:46 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2021, 11:17:53 pm »
Another thing I have ready is the gun delivery event.

Code: [Select]
extraStrings:
  - type: en-US
    strings:
      STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_DESCRIPTION: "Greetings, Comm'der! Your Military Envoy here. About them guns you've been asking me for...{NEWLINE}The council does not trust you enough to give you access to the military hardware dealers. However, I did manage to get us a small shipment of military assault rifles and ammo. Don't get excited, this is just them politicians covering their asses. In case this whole cult business is bigger than expected, they don't want the records to say they ignored my requests. It's not much, but at least we don't have to pay for it."
      STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO: "Weapon Delivery"
      STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1: "Weapon Delivery"
      STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2: "Weapon Delivery"
      STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO_LOTS: "Weapon Delivery"
      STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1_LOTS: "Weapon Delivery"
      STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2_LOTS: "Weapon Delivery"

eventScripts:
  - type: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_SCRIPT
    eventWeights:
      0:
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO: 50
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1: 25
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2: 25
    firstMonth: 0
    executionOdds: 100
    researchTriggers:
       STR_MILITARY_ENVOY_CONTACT: true
       STR_MILESTONE_2_SUMMARY: false
    minDifficulty: 2
       
  - type: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_SCRIPT_EXTRA
    eventWeights:
      0:
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO: 50
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1: 25
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2: 25
    firstMonth: 0
    executionOdds: 33
    researchTriggers:
       STR_MILITARY_ENVOY_CONTACT: true
       STR_MILESTONE_2_SUMMARY: false
    minDifficulty: 2
   
  - type: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_SCRIPT_LOTS
    eventWeights:
      0:
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO_LOTS: 50
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1_LOTS: 25
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2_LOTS: 25
    firstMonth: 0
    executionOdds: 100
    researchTriggers:
       STR_MILITARY_ENVOY_CONTACT: true
       STR_MILESTONE_2_SUMMARY: false
    maxDifficulty: 1

  - type: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_SCRIPT_LOTS_EXTRA
    eventWeights:
      0:
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO_LOTS: 50
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1_LOTS: 25
        STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2_LOTS: 25
    firstMonth: 0
    executionOdds: 33
    researchTriggers:
       STR_MILITARY_ENVOY_CONTACT: true
       STR_MILESTONE_2_SUMMARY: false
    maxDifficulty: 1
       
events:
  - name: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO
    description: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_DESCRIPTION
    background: BACK13.SCR
    randomItemList: [STR_RIFLE_M16, STR_RIFLE_L85, STR_FAMAS]
    weightedItemList:
      STR_RIFLE_M16: 2
      STR_FAMAS: 2
      STR_RIFLE_L85: 2
      STR_COLT_COMMANDO: 1
      STR_STEYR_AUG: 1
      STR_G36: 1
    everyMultiItemList:
      STR_RIFLE_M16_CLIP: 10
    timer: 20
    timerRandom: 43500

  - name: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1
    description: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_DESCRIPTION
    background: BACK13.SCR
    randomItemList: [STR_AK47, STR_AKM]
    weightedItemList:
      STR_AK47: 3
      STR_AKM: 3
      STR_GROZA: 2
    everyMultiItemList:
      STR_WP_7_62_CLIP: 10
    timer: 20
    timerRandom: 43500
   
  - name: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2
    description: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_DESCRIPTION
    background: BACK13.SCR
    everyItemList: [STR_AKSU74]
    randomItemList: [STR_AK47, STR_AKM]
    everyMultiItemList:
      STR_WP_7_62_CLIP: 5
      STR_WP_5_45_CLIP: 5
    timer: 20
    timerRandom: 43500
   
  - name: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_NATO_LOTS
    description: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_DESCRIPTION
    background: BACK13.SCR
    randomItemList: [STR_RIFLE_M16, STR_RIFLE_L85, STR_FAMAS]
    randomItemList: [STR_RIFLE_M16, STR_RIFLE_L85, STR_FAMAS]
    weightedItemList:
      STR_RIFLE_M16: 2
      STR_FAMAS: 2
      STR_RIFLE_L85: 2
      STR_COLT_COMMANDO: 1
      STR_STEYR_AUG: 1
      STR_G36: 1
    weightedItemList:
      STR_RIFLE_M16: 2
      STR_FAMAS: 2
      STR_RIFLE_L85: 2
      STR_COLT_COMMANDO: 1
      STR_STEYR_AUG: 1
      STR_G36: 1
    everyMultiItemList:
      STR_RIFLE_M16_CLIP: 40
    timer: 20
    timerRandom: 43500

  - name: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW1_LOTS
    description: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_DESCRIPTION
    background: BACK13.SCR
    randomItemList: [STR_AK47, STR_AKM]
    randomItemList: [STR_AK47, STR_AKM]
    weightedItemList:
      STR_AK47: 3
      STR_AKM: 3
      STR_GROZA: 2
    weightedItemList:
      STR_AK47: 3
      STR_AKM: 3
      STR_GROZA: 2
    everyMultiItemList:
      STR_WP_7_62_CLIP: 40
    timer: 20
    timerRandom: 43500
   
  - name: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_WARZAW2_LOTS
    description: STR_WEAPON_DELIVERY_DESCRIPTION
    background: BACK13.SCR
    everyItemList: [STR_AKSU74]
    everyItemList: [STR_AKSU74]
    randomItemList: [STR_AK47, STR_AKM]
    randomItemList: [STR_AK47, STR_AKM]
    everyMultiItemList:
      STR_WP_7_62_CLIP: 20
      STR_WP_5_45_CLIP: 20
    timer: 20
    timerRandom: 43500

The idea is, you have a chance to get the more rare guns at a point where they are still useful to you.

There is also a second part to this event that is not ready yet. I want to introduce armor piercing bullets for these guns. So you would get armor piercing ammo instead of the regular ammo from the event. 5.56/5.45 would have 0.7 armor piercing, 7.62 would have 0.85 armor piercing. To buy them you would need promotion 2, so these events are the only way to get that ammo before promotion 2.
What's not ready yet are the sprites. But should be finished soon.

Why armor piercing ammo?
The reason why special forces use an M4A1 and police rather use the mp5 is body armor. So supposedly 5.56 is a lot better vs body armor. Again, I want the game to resemble real life more closely and make 5.56 ammo an option vs armored enemies.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:51:51 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2021, 11:57:07 pm »
Alright, now it will get complicated. This is where I discuss my spreadsheet.

Here the TL;DR:
You might know that a 100% accuracy shot can still miss and you need about ~120% for a guaranteed hit. Something similarly funky is going on for low accuracies. At distance 16 tiles, a shot with stated 1% accuracy has an actual accuracy of a little over 10% (I have tested that).

-- BEWARE OF MATH !---

So I tried to build a damage model that is as accurate as possible. This consists of two parts. Part 1 is the actual damage done, part two is 'do you hit or not'?

For the 0 - 200% damage roll, the average damage is:

{[(damage * resistance * 2) - armor * armorpierce]^2 } / (damage * 4)

Now calculating the hit chance... boy this gets complicated.
There is already a good amount of info out there: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Accuracy_formula and https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Firing_Accuracy_Testing

Sadly, the page on firing accuracy testing does not actually state the formula that was used, it just gives the graph. So I tried to reverse engineer it from the information given. I arrived at this formula:

actual-hit-chance (dist) = 0,86 * acc + ( 1 - 0,86 * acc) * 0,462 / (dist * sin(deg))

dist = distance
acc = accuracy of the shot as stated by the game
deg is the angle of the firing cone for a missed shot as discussed in https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Accuracy_formula at the bottom. This value deg is also dependent on acc.

Using this formula I could get a reasonable fit of the graph.
Then I did my own testing to verify the formula. Unfortunately, I got different results. This could be because I used a different target. The example discussed here https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Firing_Accuracy_Testing uses a Muton as a target. I used an Agent in a suit as the target. They might have different size.

Anyway, my own results were as follows:
Distance 14, game accuracy 21, 180 shots. 61 hits = 34%
Distance 14, game accuracy 36, 180 shots. 87 hits = 48%
Distance 14, game accuracy 49, 120 shots. 67 hits = 56%

Here is where my scientific rigor is lacking. When doing statistics, you need a much bigger sample size to get consistent results. About 2000 or more is needed for the values to be reliable. Sooo... yeah, there is definately some error present. But I got tired of counting hits and misses at some point.

So to fit these results, I needed to modify the formula to:

actual-hit-chance (dist) = 0,8666 * acc + ( 1 - 0,8666 * acc) * 0,75 / (dist * sin(deg))

with deg(acc) = (20 - acc * 19) * Pi/180

I get a reasonable fit for my testing values with this formula. I played around with this formula for a bit and found that it has weaknesses. It can't do really close distances, and really low accuracy also seems to be off. So I would limit it's validity to distances of 8 to 20, accuracy should be 10% or more. I have also not added limits for accuracy over 100 yet.

So using this formula, I built a spreadsheet. You can enter the agent accuracy, the target armor, it's resistance and the distance of the shot. The spreadsheet takes into account dropoff and ranges of auto/snap/aimed shot. The output is then a single number that I would call 'damage output' of a gun. A higher number is better.
For an aimed shot however, this number is not a good indicator. Most rifles can do just one aimed shot per round, and it doesn't matter too much wheather it takes 60% or 70% Tu. What matters more is damage per round (number-of-shots-per-round * acc * damage). I've added that as a fourth column. At distances ~20 the stated accuracy should be close enough to actual accuracy that I don't need to use the complicated formula.

The spreadsheet has two pages. First page is the current state of the mod. Second page is my attempt at changing the stats for a better balance. Your opinion of what is a good balance will probably be different. This is still work in progress.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 12:51:59 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2021, 01:10:26 pm »
The thing is, when I googled the prices some X-Files prices were already remarkably close to what I found. For example the AUG is 2200$ and the m16 is 3000$. These are really close to current real world prices. Of course, these are civilian prices. No idea what government organizations pay.
Sooo... the results this approach gives are a lot better than you would think.

All right, but then we'd need an overhaul of all buyable items; or at least a review of them to see if they make sense in comparison.

Of course I have. Neatly sorted in a spreadsheet. This will take some explaining though, I will add that in the next post.

Here is the 5.56 family. Please keep in mind this is work in progress, I have not playtested this enough.

(...)


The guidelines I used were these:
- If it has a scope, it gets more snap range. L85, AUG and G36 have scopes.
- Bullpup means faster to aim, but less accurate at range.
- There are two tiers. M16, Famas and L85 are lower tier. M4A1, AUG and G36 are the higher tier.

Very well, it all makes sense!

Since it is WIP, I'll hold on for now, but please let me know if you have any conclusions.

The reason behind the two tiers is that the higher tier guns are harder to get. I have only looked this up in the game files, so I might be wrong. G36 is only available from the cult dealers and can not be found as a drop (you could buy it at promotion 2, but since it doesn't drop you can't research it and thus don't get it). AUG needs promotion 2 to buy. M4A1 is used mostly by high ranking Exalt.

Indeed that's the case, but these things fluctuate a lot. Tomorrow there may be cultists toting G36s. In fact, it should be used by Dagon people... I think I'll add it as a rare drop to bases...
...OK, done. I replaced AKs with G36s, but only in Dagon bases. Still rather late, compared to AKMs or M16s.

The G36 beeing the most accurate is based on that it has probably the best optics and is the newest design (introduced 1997). The AUG is a direct copy of the L85 with +5% acc on everything and +1 auto and snap range. This is mostly based on that it needs promotion 2 to buy.

That's fine, and I gave it to high ranks only to limit the proliferation.

Another thing I have ready is the gun delivery event. (...)

The idea is, you have a chance to get the more rare guns at a point where they are still useful to you.

The idea is fine, but the execution is absurdly generous. 100% chance every month?! I can agree to maybe 20%, and with Promo 1 as a condition... It's 0 effort, unlike getting weapon boxes.

Also, while I don't have much experience with this, I believe that your code won't work - according to the ruleset reference, you can't specify amounts on everyItemList, only on everyMultiItemList. But that's just a tip, doesn't really matter for the discussion.

There is also a second part to this event that is not ready yet. I want to introduce armor piercing bullets for these guns. So you would get armor piercing ammo instead of the regular ammo from the event. 5.56/5.45 would have 0.7 armor piercing, 7.62 would have 0.85 armor piercing. To buy them you would need promotion 2, so these events are the only way to get that ammo before promotion 2.
What's not ready yet are the sprites. But should be finished soon.

Why armor piercing ammo?
The reason why special forces use an M4A1 and police rather use the mp5 is body armor. So supposedly 5.56 is a lot better vs body armor. Again, I want the game to resemble real life more closely and make 5.56 ammo an option vs armored enemies.

AP ammo is something I've been considering for years myself. The reason I haven't done that is that we already have many bullet types, including a plethora of sci-fi concepts, and having multiple types of same-level ammo feels a tad too much. It would be great for a Jagged Alliance mod with little to no fictional weapons, but here, I have my doubts. I am not saying no, but I'm not convinced yet.

Alright, now it will get complicated. This is where I discuss my spreadsheet.

Here the TL;DR:
You might know that a 100% accuracy shot can still miss and you need about ~120% for a guaranteed hit. Something similarly funky is going on for low accuracies. At distance 16 tiles, a shot with stated 1% accuracy has an actual accuracy of a little over 10% (I have tested that).

120% is not guaranteed, it only means minimal deviation. Which can still be a miss.

The % in accuracy is absolutrely meaningless, I suppose you've read that on the forums many times. I am not saying that your math is wrong, just larifying some tests.

Anyway, there is a tool written exactly for that, pity you haven't asked before... It was made by The Curse and is a Java app. I don't have it on hand right now, but I'll try to find it for you.

EDIT: Tool here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,8229.0.html
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 04:04:54 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Eddie

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2021, 04:59:44 pm »
First of all, thank you for the positive feedback.

All right, but then we'd need an overhaul of all buyable items; or at least a review of them to see if they make sense in comparison.
Yep, that is what I am working on right now.
This is probably the right time to ask: Is it better for you if I give you a modified items_XCOMFILES.rul? So you can use merge tools to get the changed prices? Or how do you prefer that I post the numbers?

Quote
Also, while I don't have much experience with this, I believe that your code won't work - according to the ruleset reference, you can't specify amounts on everyItemList, only on everyMultiItemList. But that's just a tip, doesn't really matter for the discussion.
I tested the event, it seems to do what I want. The numbers in 'weightedItemList:' are weights, not amounts. The regular difficulty event gives you two guns, the low difficulty event gives you four guns. That's why I thought 100% chance is not too much, it's just two guns that you get.

About the AP ammo:
I was thinking just for 5.56/5.45 and 7.62 ammo. Those currently have only one ammo type (with the exception of the ADS).

And thanks for the link to the java tool. Let's see by how much my calculations were off.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2021, 01:20:43 pm »
First of all, thank you for the positive feedback.
Yep, that is what I am working on right now.
This is probably the right time to ask: Is it better for you if I give you a modified items_XCOMFILES.rul? So you can use merge tools to get the changed prices? Or how do you prefer that I post the numbers?

Frankly the most comfortable and "proper" way to do so is through a GitHub pull request. But if it's a problem for you, we can do it by hand, like you've been doing before with examples.

I tested the event, it seems to do what I want. The numbers in 'weightedItemList:' are weights, not amounts.

Okay, I completely misunderstood your intention, sorry.

The regular difficulty event gives you two guns, the low difficulty event gives you four guns. That's why I thought 100% chance is not too much, it's just two guns that you get.

But that's a lot. Having an gun and not having a gun is a huge difference. And I really am not willing to give the player presents for sitting on their ass. Doing it as a random event is fine, but guaranteed? Lol, fuck no.

About the AP ammo:
I was thinking just for 5.56/5.45 and 7.62 ammo. Those currently have only one ammo type (with the exception of the ADS).

Well, maybe... But it'll hrow the current model into disarray, since 5.56 is already AP, while 7.62 is not (but is stronger). So this distinction already exists.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2021, 02:11:59 am »
Well, maybe... But it'll hrow the current model into disarray, since 5.56 is already AP, while 7.62 is not (but is stronger). So this distinction already exists.
Depends on what you think is the "standard" bullet. The discussion about 7.62 vs 5.56 (standard bullets) is that both are somewhat similar in armor penetration, but 7.62 inflicts bigger wounds. Translating this relationship into gameplay values means the standard 5.56 has to have some armor penetration (or more than 7.62).
I actually did not think the 5.56 we have right now is a special armor piercing bullet. But also I played mostly PirateZ before x-com files, and there the standard assault rifle ammo has 0.85 AP, while armor piercing ammo has 0.7 AP. So this influences my view on the matter.

But regarding things beeing in order in the current model:
The P90 ammo has AP 0.8 and 25 damage. This ammo is better vs armor than the current 5.56. This actually made me believe the current 5.56 is not a special armor piercing bullet. Adding 5.56 AP ammo would fix that relationship.

Offline Dogbarian

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2021, 06:25:05 pm »
Since you're talking about an overhaul based on real-world observations.
- a scope actually hinders snap fire, it takes longer to aim and you lose a lot of situational awareness and sight picture.  It should improve aimed fire accuracy (and/or effective range), perhaps at a malus to TU usage.  Snap fire accuracy is improved by red-dot or holo optics, improved iron sights (and by improved, I mean tritium dots, better pattern, etc), lasers (put the dot on the target and pull the trigger), and "handiness" (improved by better slings, hand-grips/foregrips/pistol grips, and shorter overall length, which could be shortened barrel, collapsed stock, bullpup, etc).
- 5.45 and 5.56 have better armor piercing characteristics than .45 or 9mm (pistol/SMG ammo) because of bullet shape and velocity, not "AP rounds".  The stock FMJ rounds of 5.56 goes through Class II body armor (which stops 9mm FMJ ammo - although you would still take "stun" damage), and Class III armor typically needs hard plates to stop them.  True AP rounds of 5.56 is only stopped by Class IV plates.  Not sure you're really looking for this kind of granularity, but I'd say that "pistol" ammo should improve armor effectiveness (like musket balls or slayer ammo in Piratez), armor has 100% effectiveness against rifle ammo, and true AP ammo applies against maybe 75% of armor.  And even 5.56 ammo would do more damage from a longer-barreled weapon (so a pistol or SMG firing 5.56 does less damage than a rifle) - the longer barrel gives more time to accelerate the bullet.

Offline gijoe

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Re: Real weapons overhaul discussion
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2021, 11:15:07 am »
I like the colt commando, but i think it should be a bit more shortened, to match more the "real world"