[TFTD][game progression] TFTD: Evolution 1.14

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I didn't plan for all of the weapon types to be usable throughout the game. It is impossible to make all six of them so variant. The fact that you use gauss pistol at initial phase and then drop it for rifle and then transition to heavy is completely fine.

I agree that gauss vs. sonic is the bigger consideration. There are (possibly) two approaches to this.
1. Make sonic versions unconditionally better so it will be no brainer to switch to them once they are available.
2. Interlace them a little and give them some variation so they replace each other on heaviness basis gradually.

The problem with #1 is that by making sonic pistol better than heavy gauss we effectively make heavy gauss weak enough to not be able to fight tasoths and lobstermen. That may be disastrous if on SH player encounters them before they can research sonic weapons. Heavy gauss should be able to kill basic lobstermen even if with enormous amount of hits. Just to be sure player is not stuck completely before sonic weapons are discovered.

So, I guess, they should be interlaced to some extent. The question is - to which?

Initially I planned pistol to replace pistol, rifle to replace rifle, etc. With this power progression: gp - sp - gr - sr - hg - sc. Apparently, that makes sp so weak that it is not even usable against tougher enemies at the time it is discovered in this mod.
Then I shifted sonic versions to make this progression: gp - gr/sp - hg/sr - sc. So that sp is as powerful as gr but lighter and faster albeit less precise. By your feedback it does not seem sufficient to prefer sp to gr still. Yes, one can do it or do not - the consequences are about same so could as well skip sp altogether.
With the above in mind, should we shift sonic versions even further to make gp - gr - sp - hg - sr - sc? This way at the time sp is discovered it is definitely better replacement for gr. Actually, gr should be in its sunset at this time anyway. What do you think?

[psavola]

Initially I planned pistol to replace pistol, rifle to replace rifle, etc. With this power progression: gp - sp - gr - sr - hg - sc. Apparently, that makes sp so weak that it is not even usable against tougher enemies at the time it is discovered in this mod.
Then I shifted sonic versions to make this progression: gp - gr/sp - hg/sr - sc. So that sp is as powerful as gr but lighter and faster albeit less precise. By your feedback it does not seem sufficient to prefer sp to gr still. Yes, one can do it or do not - the consequences are about same so could as well skip sp altogether.
With the above in mind, should we shift sonic versions even further to make gp - gr - sp - hg - sr - sc? This way at the time sp is discovered it is definitely better replacement for gr. Actually, gr should be in its sunset at this time anyway. What do you think?

I support the idea of some kind of interlacing to enable some variety and distinguish the game from vanilla, but as you say, it doesn't really make sense to try to keep all 6 guns viable until the end game. Even 4 viable guns would be very good. One factor for viability might be that some challenging alien armors might be more easily penetrated with either sonic or gauss but not both. For example, in TWoTS, squidfaces have a vulnerability for gauss and take less damage from sonic. This mod already has that (gauss = 1.0, sonic = 0.5), making gauss useful against them at least.

In this mod, the two rather important features of a gun are accuracy (on longer range guns) and ability for auto shot either for situations less than 10 squares (when a single hit doesn't give a kill) or very close (when you don't happen to have a good melee weapon). TU cost is a smaller consideration unless you can make two aimed shots in a turn (rare) or with bigger guns, two snap shots from smaller distances. Also note that auto shot or low TU cost on sonic weapons might increase the difficulty slightly, because the aliens would shoot more (and even if they missed, they might end up hitting another x-com soldier). If TU cost for snap shot is low, the aliens will do a huge number of reaction shots, possibly increasing the difficulty slightly. Your idea of providing auto shot only for gauss weapons (and even only some of them, e.g. pistol and rifle, or even only rifle) might be useful. Unfortunately I don't have any more specific suggestions or ideas.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

This is all good talk that resonates with my though! Thank you for maintaining conversation.

Let me reiterate it once more. I don't want to force player to use multiple hand weapons. They can if they want to but this should not be required to pass the game. There is already enough variation between projectile/explosive/incendiary/stun. I would count my mission complete if at any given point player uses two different hand weapons for the sake of flexibility. That is completely fine when some of them become obsolete. That does not even mean each of them is absolutely required to win the game. I guess one can easily skip GP or GR or HG without much impact but skipping two of them in a row may be ineffective.
My imaginary progression looks like this.
GP is good up to gillmen medium USOs and port terror missions.
GR is good up to tasoth medium USOs and port terror missions.
HG is good up to all USO sizes and tough terrorists like Xarquid. Therefore, could be good for ship tasoth missions too.
SP is a lightweight replacement for GR and does not obsolete HG. Maybe be weapon of choice for weak soldiers or as a sidearm to offset HG slowness.
SR obsoletes HG and at this point it should be good for all kind of missions including alien bases. Although SC and PWT launcher are better equipment for that.
SC obsoletes SP and good until the end of the game against toughest creatures, obviously.

RE: alien vulnerability.

I like the idea of some of them vulnerable to certain attack type as it give the edge to whom knows it. At the same time it should not be a requirement and player should be able to grind their way through with conventional attacks. From the other side, there is not need to overdo it. One best way to kill creature should be enough. I also don't like to force player to use gauss weapon throughout the end of the game as eventually this series should sunset. That is why I set Cephallid/Squidface damage modifiers for both gauss and sonic to 1.

More details on vulnerabilities.
Lobstermen vulnerable to drill - good.
All other aliens vulnerable to fire - good. With 80 phosphorous torpedo damage it becomes 160 damage. Which is good way to tackle them.
Tentaculat vulnerable to fire and susceptible to HE - good. I guess everybody knows it from vanilla. Nothing to change.
Xarquid is susceptible to drill. I think this is enough for it. Otherwise, it won't be a serious threat anymore. Feel free to propose anything else.
Same for bio-drone. With lesser armor it is even easier to kill with vibroblade for example.
Hallucinoid is vulnerable to fire. With its medium armor and health it is easy to kill with rocket tank.

So far I don't see any urge to change vulnerabilities.

Triscene is the only alien I would modify. Currently it has no vulnerabilities, insane side armor but none under. That is why the *only* way to kill it is with grenades (or rockets probably). Which contradicts flexibility principle. There should be some other way to kill it.
Change options:
- reduce side armor to make it penetrable for HG and SR at least. I am going with this option in next version.
- add some serious vulnerability for fire or stun or drill or even smoke?

[psavola]

like the idea of some of them vulnerable to certain attack type as it give the edge to whom knows it. At the same time it should not be a requirement and player should be able to grind their way through with conventional attacks. From the other side, there is not need to overdo it. One best way to kill creature should be enough. I also don't like to force player to use gauss weapon throughout the end of the game as eventually this series should sunset. That is why I set Cephallid/Squidface damage modifiers for both gauss and sonic to 1.

Agreed. If you know the right tools for the job, 1 vs 2 hits or 2 vs 3 hits is a good offset. It might get easily frustrating if you have difficulty of inflicting any damage except with a few options (to some degree, the game already has a few at least borderline cases, such as xarquids and triscenes).

More details on vulnerabilities.
Lobstermen vulnerable to drill - good.
All other aliens vulnerable to fire - good. With 80 phosphorous torpedo damage it becomes 160 damage. Which is good way to tackle them.
Tentaculat vulnerable to fire and susceptible to HE - good. I guess everybody knows it from vanilla. Nothing to change.
Xarquid is susceptible to drill. I think this is enough for it. Otherwise, it won't be a serious threat anymore. Feel free to propose anything else.
Same for bio-drone. With lesser armor it is even easier to kill with vibroblade for example.
Hallucinoid is vulnerable to fire. With its medium armor and health it is easy to kill with rocket tank.

Fire is an interesting vulnerability, because in vanilla I doubt much of anyone used it. So I'm all for more variety.

My biggest gripe is with xarquid and biodrone. Drills vulnerability against flying enemies? Enemies that are primarily deployed on open maps, and rarely encountered inside ships or buildings? Both enemies have a very accurate and deadly long range guns? Seems somewhat unfair to me. Sure, vulnerability is cool, if you can leverage it, but I think you really need to have a viable main alternative to deal with them without drills, unless the specific intent is to force the player to employ "kamikaze tactics" against those enemies.

Further, xarquids accompany the easiest alien race, gillmen (especially on large/very large ships). Is it intentional that their underwater terror units are made the most difficult to deal with? Certainly this is an acceptable way to make gillmen very large ships very difficult if that is the goal for balancing and ensuring that at least that very large ship is no cakewalk.

- reduce side armor to make it penetrable for HG and SR at least. I am going with this option in next version.
- add some serious vulnerability for fire or stun or drill or even smoke?

When the difficulty of an alien is similar to the main game, one could assume the players are aware of how to deal with it. It's the cases which differ from the vanilla in a significant way that shouldn't cause very nasty surprises.

Reducing some armor is obivously fine. Triscene might also already be somewhat susceptible to stun bombs (due to 4x hit), but I didn't check.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

My biggest gripe is with xarquid and biodrone. Drills vulnerability against flying enemies? Enemies that are primarily deployed on open maps, and rarely encountered inside ships or buildings? Both enemies have a very accurate and deadly long range guns? Seems somewhat unfair to me. Sure, vulnerability is cool, if you can leverage it, but I think you really need to have a viable main alternative to deal with them without drills, unless the specific intent is to force the player to employ "kamikaze tactics" against those enemies.

I agree drill against flying creatures is kinda not well thought.

If you want them to be vulnerable to ranged weapon than which? I agree they are tough enough so they require few hits from afar. However, once player learned not to rush toward them but snipe once they are located with targeted squad fire they can be certainly killed. HG and SP are fine against them. Even GR works ok.

If it is fire, then there will be too much fire vulnerable creature. People would abandon conventional weapons altogether and use fire rockets exclusively. HE? Not unique either. Would make them another triscene. Besides, they are flying.

Further, xarquids accompany the easiest alien race, gillmen (especially on large/very large ships). Is it intentional that their underwater terror units are made the most difficult to deal with? Certainly this is an acceptable way to make gillmen very large ships very difficult if that is the goal for balancing and ensuring that at least that very large ship is no cakewalk.

When the difficulty of an alien is similar to the main game, one could assume the players are aware of how to deal with it. It's the cases which differ from the vanilla in a significant way that shouldn't cause very nasty surprises.

I believe it is by design, yes. Otherwise, taking large USO would be a cakewalk. It should not be.

[psavola]

If you want them to be vulnerable to ranged weapon than which? I agree they are tough enough so they require few hits from afar. However, once player learned not to rush toward them but snipe once they are located with targeted squad fire they can be certainly killed. HG and SP are fine against them. Even GR works ok.

As xarquids are likely to come across in the early game - possibly with no access to sonic yet - and have relatively heavy armor, a 0.5 vulnerability to gauss would make them noticeably easier. But if you don't want to make them that much easier, another alternative would be to have 0.5 for sonic. That would "reward" researching and making use of sonic as early as possibly. The third option would be to just have 1.0 for both gauss and sonic, and if you make sonic weapons better, that would include a sufficient advantage (= more powerful sonic rifle and cannon might blast through their armor with sufficient ease).

For biodrones I have no opinion, but bear in mind that they explode unless you kill them with HE or drill (AFAIR) or stun them. Depending on context, you may prefer explosion (if enemies nearby?), but typically perhaps not. This might be a consideration. Maybe stun or either sonic or gauss would be nice.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Hand weapon powers in current version I am testing: gauss: 40-60-90, sonic: 70-100-130.
As you can see they are pretty close to vanilla except HG because it was an absolute crap there.

With that in mind HG would require approximately 120 / (90 - 50) = 3 hits to kill a xarquid. With increased aimed accuracy this should be an absolutely acceptable rate. SC should do it even faster. GR and SP may require more grinding, of course, but there should be no problems researching HG quick enough.

I disagree they come in early game. Sure they could by chance but they are not supposed to. Meaning if player encounters them early and don't have good way to kill them - they just simply turn around and wait for researching better gears. Simple as that. Same as nobody attacks bases with GP.

Biodrones are not the issue at all. 20 armor is easily penetrable by GR. They are deadly all right and require caution in maneuvering but not impassable.
Same goes for all other terrorists like calcinite, deep one, hallucinoid, etc. They are all relatively deadly but killable. I don't see much need to make them more vulnerable.

[psavola]

If you have a set of changes ready and at least testable, please upload a version. I might be tempted to try it.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Sure thing. Let me brush it up and upload.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Uploaded and added changelist.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I am playing longer SH game now and noticed one thing. Not sure if it is even related to the mod.

I have HG and SP. They are powerful enough to kill tasoths and all terrorists followers at this level. Saw cephalids but not lobstermen. Interceptors are armed with GC and they easily shut down all medium USOs and I also recover some larger landed USOs so cash flow seems to be adequate.

This is pace of events that worries me. USOs appear few times a day. I have 6-7 interceptors but I don't have time to even refuel them in time to intercept next one and next one. Same for recover missions. Flying triton back and forth requires about a day and there are more crash sites than I can serve. I have about 40 soldiers in my main base but about 20-30 of them are wounded all the time. I started running out of everything: time, money, supplies. I have 100 technicians building gauss tanks + their ammo, heavy gauss + ammo, gauss cannon ammo and they cannot keep up. I am forced to downgrade to rocket tanks. The supply of sonic pistol ammo ran out and I don't recover more as aliens seem not to carry sonic pistols anymore. I didn't yet researched sonic rifle. I guess I have to pretty soon. I have to skip missions sometimes due to lack of time or lack of tanks or lack of soldiers or their equipment. I guess I have to also build secondary main mission base with another triton and soldiers in some other base to keep up with the pace.
I am building more workshops and laboratories, of course but they are still in construction.

All in all, this is not the management collapse leading to the end of the game but kinda tough experience I didn't see before in vanilla. From the other side, this is SH difficulty. So some minor problems should appear to make it not a cakewalk after mid game. So maybe it should be expected.

[psavola]

Playing 1.13, now in May (still waiting for the first large/very large ship). I noticed that Alien Containment research dependencies do not reflect the comments in the ruleset. Based on the comments I expected that you should have cryogenics, cloning and an autopsy. Now  completing all 4 autopsies unlocks researching alien containment, even though I hadn't been able to research either cryogenics or cloning. It appears that the ruleset is now actually OR instead of AND.

However, maybe this behavior is better even though it's somewhat illogical. That way if you have bad RNG and aren't able to get both cloning and cryogenics, you still get access to containment eventually in April-June timeframe at the latest, when you have faced all four original alien races. But if you want to keep this faithful to the original idea, this needs to be fixed.

[SIMON BAILIE]

Just researched the thermal shok launcher and I was able to use and manufacture it and its ammo before researching the ammo. Is this right? Using latest openxcom extended and v1.13 of the mod.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

The weapon- ammo research paradigm is something we should simplify.  Researching weapon should include ammo as well. There is no sense to use then separately.

As for Allen containment I already found this bug and fixed it can update 1.13.

[psavola]

In some mods, you cannot even manufacture alien items or components, you'll have to make do with those you scavenge from them. Sometimes this might make you think about how you're using the ammo, and possibly use various kinds of weapons depending on how much you need to conserve ammunition for each. Not sure if this is something that could be considered here. The same applies to alien components. It strikes me as strange that you can manufacture e.g. aqua plastics, ion-beam accelerators, etc. You should have to rely on what you can obtain from the aliens.