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Author Topic: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.14  (Read 11188 times)

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2022, 10:52:17 pm »
A little more research sophistication ideas.

Allen containment <- any alien autopsy + alien cryogenic
MC reader <- any alien autopsy + alien cloning
MC lab <- MC reader + alien learning array + any live aquatoid
MC disruptor <- MC reader + MC lab + alien implanter + medic/navigator/commander

This way player can research MC lab by raiding some mid size USOs.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 12:11:17 am by Alpha Centauri Bear »

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #91 on: November 20, 2022, 12:22:44 am »
Just researched the thermal shok launcher and I was able to use and manufacture it and its ammo before researching the ammo. Is this right? Using latest openxcom extended and v1.13 of the mod.

This mod auto advance all ammo after weapon research. Check your ufopaedia and you'll see both weapon and ammo there (maybe on the same page).

Offline psavola

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #92 on: November 20, 2022, 09:01:46 am »
A little more research sophistication ideas.

Allen containment <- any alien autopsy + alien cryogenic
MC reader <- any alien autopsy + alien cloning
MC lab <- MC reader + alien learning array + any live aquatoid
MC disruptor <- MC reader + MC lab + alien implanter + medic/navigator/commander

This way player can research MC lab by raiding some mid size USOs.

Alien cryogenics is only available from dreadnought and battleship. Battleships in early-mid game are usually terror ships or difficult to shoot down. Alien cloning can additionally be obtained from fleet supply cruiser. Smaller ships have neither of these. Some of these are avaiable from artifact sites, colonies, etc., which could be rather difficult, at least when they have strong MC aliens.

Doesn't the MC reader requirement alien cloning mean that you need to deal with a large or very large ship before you could research that and therefore you couldn't get MC lab either. I suppose you actually meant that you need to have a MC reader (item), but not necessarily be able to research it yet, plus a learning array. That doesn't help that much if alien containment already requires going through a battleship or very large ship.

In my opinion, the early game would be rather difficult and dependent on RNG with those research requirements. This mod already decreases MC strength max to 60. So even if you screen your soldiers once you get MC lab, they are still somewhat susceptible to MC attacks. Having to deal with a battleship or very large ship without MC screening is a challenge which also depends heavily on RNG (do you get a ship with a race with few or zero MC capable units or not?). The difficulty is bolstered as the underwater terror units are also more difficult, even significantly so, compared to vanilla. Unless you get some tech advancement by June/July, you're likely on the path to losing the game. I'd suggest that a game design where success/failure depends heavily on RNG is not optimal. Obviously it's still your choice how difficult and RNG-dependent you want especially the early-mid game to be.

In my current game in mid-June, due to the bug in alien containment dependencies, I have alien containment, MC lab and MC disruptor without having to go through any very large ship (there was only one earlier, with aquatoids - meaning a no-go, and now a second one). I have captured all aquatoid species except the commander from fleet supply cruisers. Dunno about getting MC disruptor at this point (I plan to use it to train up MC skill a bit), but otherwise the game is still no cakewalk. With "correct" dependencies for MC lab/alien containment, very likely I would have been screwed already (no alien containment, no MC lab).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 12:12:06 pm by psavola »

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #93 on: November 20, 2022, 06:09:17 pm »
Yeah. I may mix these dependencies up because I don't know where each component appears. I assumed they are listen in order of easier to harder to obtain. Do you know which USO carries which components? I will rearrange my proposition then.

Offline psavola

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #94 on: November 20, 2022, 07:10:09 pm »
Yeah. I may mix these dependencies up because I don't know where each component appears. I assumed they are listen in order of easier to harder to obtain. Do you know which USO carries which components? I will rearrange my proposition then.

You can see the vanilla values for example by clicking the subs in the bottom of the page https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Alien_Submarines

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2022, 07:38:15 pm »
That what I was looking for. Thank you.

So here is their appearance in vanilla:
Alien Learning Arrays: Cruiser
Alien Cloning: F.S. Cruiser
Alien Cryogenics: Battleship
Alien Implanter: Dreadnaught

With this in mind I would remove alien component requirement from alien containment and rewrite the proposed tree like that.

Allen containment   <- any alien autopsy. Optionally, few autopsies? Aquatoid and Gillman?
MC reader         <- any live alien. Optionally, few of them + terrorists?
MC lab         <- MC reader + alien learning arrays + medic
MC disruptor      <- MC reader + MC lab + alien implanter + navigator/commander

What do you think?
That may be too easy for first three but that should be fine. I do not want to scrutinize the progress to MC lab. MC disruptor, from the other side, should be hard to obtain.

That leaves the question what to do with cloning and cryogenics? Cloning is somewhat easier to obtain from F.S. Cruiser but it is not good to add it as a dependency to M.C. Lab as you may encounter F.S. Cruiser only few months down the road + building the facility + one month of initial training = too late.
Maybe add them as requirement for alien weapon just for fun? Cloning for thermal shock launcher and cryogenics for PWT launcher?

Offline psavola

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2022, 08:16:57 pm »
Allen containment   <- any alien autopsy. Optionally, few autopsies? Aquatoid and Gillman?
MC reader         <- any live alien. Optionally, few of them + terrorists?
MC lab         <- MC reader + alien learning arrays + medic
MC disruptor      <- MC reader + MC lab + alien implanter + navigator/commander

What do you think?
That may be too easy for first three but that should be fine. I do not want to scrutinize the progress to MC lab. MC disruptor, from the other side, should be hard to obtain.

That leaves the question what to do with cloning and cryogenics? Cloning is somewhat easier to obtain from F.S. Cruiser but it is not good to add it as a dependency to M.C. Lab as you may encounter F.S. Cruiser only few months down the road + building the facility + one month of initial training = too late.
Maybe add them as requirement for alien weapon just for fun? Cloning for thermal shock launcher and cryogenics for PWT launcher?

I support this idea in general: "delay" the start of the game slightly before getting sonic, but not make the start of the game excessively difficult or RNG-dependent.

I agree that MC disruptor should certainly come later (you can't use it anyway, until you have been a while in the MC lab). Any single autopsy for the alien containment might be a little bit too easy. That would essentially allow starting down the sonic tree as early as in February, March at the latest. This might be fine, because the gauss weapons stay relevant nonetheless due to other balancing choices. I'd suggest at least aquatoid and gillman (maybe also either tasoth or lobsterman as the third, but that might make it too RNG-dependent). For MC reader, I'd suggest some live alien, for example a squad leader, or possibly either a medic, technician or navigator (a MC-capable alien that is). A terrorist would be alternative, but that would be challenging but not excessively so (similar to grabbing a live deep one terrorist in vanilla; however, now this is a bit more trickier, because you don't get access to alien containment at the start, so you'd have to wish for a manageable terror mission later).

I can't think of a logical dependency for cryogenics and cloning. Maybe you don't need one, or you could add one for building manta/leviathan (currently getting them is rather easy). PWT launcher at least could have extra dependencies, because it is an end-game tech in any case. It would be still be OK to have cloning as a requirement for MC lab (you can manage FS cruisers without MC screening), but that would create a RNG dependency on spotting a FS cruiser in the early game. Without cloning dependency, you'd be almost guaranteed a smooth start into the game (which might be a good idea, to not frustrate the players too much).

Edit: I think a general weakness, similar to vanilla, is that you really need very few alien components and once you have gotten them (and possibly researched them), they are essentially useless junk. This concerns especially ones that are slightly more difficult to get, i.e. implanter, examination room, cryogenics, etc. If you couödn't manufacture those components and you needed them to manufacture something, you'd actually have some reason to go for Artifact site missions or very large ships. Now, once you have already obtained everything you could need, you may want to go there and abort the mission. But not sure if this is worth fixing in this mod, because this would require significant rework (similar to TWoTS, for example).
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 08:36:40 pm by psavola »

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2022, 11:55:48 pm »
Good ideas.

Alien containment
As you correctly noticed, it is the path to all other alien technologies. I would not delay it too much to not frustrate player. At the same time to prolong it a little we can use alien + terrorist autopsy combination. Then first terror mission at the end of January should unlock it and player may have alien containment sometimes at the end of February which should be good enough as they also need to capture and interrogate bunch of aliens. It does not need to be more delayed than that.
<- any alien autopsy + any terrorist autopsy

MC reader
I perceive it as rather cool toy adding variety in game but not a game breaker. It helps with targeted capture but even without it one can just stun all aliens in medium-large USOs and sort them out later. Probably makes sense to give it to player earlier when it can be used to discover and exploit subtle advantages in enemy armor/health/TU, etc. With better armor and weapon development it become less relevant.
It may not even be dependent on live aliens so it could be researched in parallel with alien containment. I am thinking to replace live alien dependency to alien learning arrays. Let me know if you believe this item should be delayed more.
<- alien learning arrays

MC lab
I understand you don't have major concern about this one so it may stay the same and alien learning arrays dependency would just shift to MC reader.
<- MC reader + medic

For alien components in general we can use them to manufacture player subs. The rationale for that would be that they are part of alien subs so could be as well used in ours. They are not manufacturable and used in about same proportion in our subs as in alien ones.
Alien cloning may be used for manta/hammerhead (both research and manufacture).
Alien cryogenics may be used for hammerhead/leviathan (both research and manufacture).
Another option is to make manta depend not only on components but on live aliens too: technician and navigator, which makes sense.
Or both of these options which should be fine too.

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.13
« Reply #98 on: November 26, 2022, 08:22:30 pm »
I just realized Tasoths don't have psi skill in this mod. That is strange as they were strong psi race in vanilla and even MC Disruptor required tasoth interrogation.

I am going to re-add psi skills to some units. Here is the plan.

Aquatoids
medic, technician, navigator, commander
Excluding lower ranks to avoid psi attack in early game while assaulting small USOs.

Gillmen
navigator, commander
Need to give them something so they at least stir things a little during terror missions.
Also want to increase their health. After discovering gauss rifle they are as easy to kill as aquatoids. They should not be the easiest race.

Tasoths
squad leader and above ranks

Lobstermen
Not sure. Maybe give some to commanders?
Also plan to increase their health just a tiny bit to make sure they are tougher than tasoths.

Cephalids
all ranks
They are very easy to kill. So they should be quite psi annoying. I don't see this happening in this mod.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 10:51:51 pm by Alpha Centauri Bear »

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

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Re: [TFTD][Weapons and armaments] TFTD Rework: Evolution 1.14
« Reply #99 on: Today at 05:34:11 am »
Released 1.14 with all the small changes I added.
Mostly research tree to make sense for more distant and less distant discoveries. Should make better sense and be easier to track with research tree.