Very Early Weapon Balance, take two (1.3)

[Slaughter]

So... Been a while since I played this mod. I have taken to playing it again. Lemme do some thinking, regarding early guns - pre-Promotion 1 stuff, mind:

Firearms:

- Glock 18: The lowest damaging gun without crap stats. Useful mainly for early cult missions and abductions. The extended mag gives it extra life. Auto-fire helps a bit when close. The low damage helps with captures. After four months it becomes next to useless.

- Beretta: All-rounder pistol. Damage is decent, accuracy is good, speed is good.

- .45 Pistol: I used to think this was crap, but I relied on it and its actually kinda decent. Still inferior to the magnum in most senses but up close due to its superior snapshot accuracy and lower TUs to fire.

- Pump Action Shotgun: Decent but you will want to replace it with the Shotgun as fast as possible. Its inferior and less versatile than its predecessor, altrough it fires a bit faster.

- Small Shotgun: I got a lot of mileage from it back when. Not sure if I have not employed it right or whatnot, but it doesn't as good as it was back when. I mainly keep it as zom-b-gone, but these days it seems better to stay far, far away entirely and plink them out from afar.

- Magnum: Now we're talking. Two aimed shots per turn and a snap. Superior accuracy and power compared to the .45. Closest thing you will have to a proper sniping weapon, for awhile.

Taser Pistol: Its good for what it is. Kinda unrealiable and slow. Seriously thinking about just going with more baton shotguns, 2nd slot melee weapons, and forsaking those now that batons are a thing.

- Crossbow: Tried to use it as a sniper weapon like, once. Seems pretty accurate but too slow to really compare to the Magnum.

- Shotgun: Now this is where it is at. Decent accuracy, good damage and the ability to equip three types of ammo: Buckshot, Armor Piercing and Baton. Baton rounds are a new feature and quite cool. Armor piercing can turn a shotgun with a good shooter into a quite deadly guetto sniper. Buckshot is for close range.

- The Kludge: Weird gun. Its a weaker magnum but it can also take buckshot rounds. So you can turn a magnum into a shot-pistol and back, pretty much. Haven't used it much to comment further.


Melee Weapons:

Electric Baton: Not much to say, it stuns things. Mainly useful for cultists.

Wooden Club: Pretty snappy and useful for stunning in labour missions and such.

Wooden Bat: Slow, but delivers a nice heap of stunning.

Stuff I got but haven't used so far:
- Uzi
- Skorpio (seems like a bad uzi)
- Throwing Knives (seems interesting, but no strength bonus is kinda eh. Does it arc?)
- Makarov (seems like a trash .45)
- Calico
- Tonfa
- Most melee (can't use it much for the moment)



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[Bobit]

My opinions, which have changed over time:

Glock: Seems like trash but actually it is the best of the three. Auto-fire and large mags are the only important things in lifeforms, arrests, and the occasional suicidal safehouse. By the time you reach the other missions you should be using magnum/mp5 or just blackops weapons.

Crossbow: Concealment mission only weapon.

Small Shotguns and the like: Sidearm for agents who are carrying a weapon with bad auto-fire. Not a must have as space is tight but it can be a lifesaver.

Double Barreled Shotgun: My favorite. Plays to the strengths of a shotgun with the massive burst damage. Reasonable range if necessary due to high power.

Shotgun Ammo: EDIT: AP does have to do with range because it clearly doesn't use choke. It's anti-armor, and bleed. If your enemy has armor and you don't care about bleeding him, use AP. Generally buckshot is the purpose of the shotgun. But against EXALT AP shotguns can be better than rifles.


Taser: Significantly better than melee stuns against non-wounded/flashbanged enemies. However it removes the only decent way to train melee.

Melee stuns: high melee -> tonfa, else capped str -> wooden club, else electric club.

Throwing: Caps at 70. Mostly you want to train using the godlike flashbangs until you reach the cap. Then you can use Bows, Knives, Stars which should be pretty good if the instakill Black Lotus Warriors are any indication. Still might want a moderate amount of firing training on the agent. Melee training shouldn't be necessary with that much closerange power.

[Slaughter]

My opinions, which have changed over time:

Glock: Seems like trash but actually it is the best of the three. Auto-fire and large mags are the only important things in lifeforms, arrests, and the occasional suicidal safehouse. By the time you reach the other missions you should be using magnum/mp5 or just blackops weapons.

Crossbow: Concealment mission only weapon.

Small Shotguns and the like: Sidearm for agents who are carrying a weapon with bad auto-fire. Not a must have as space is tight but it can be a lifesaver.

Double Barreled Shotgun: My favorite. Plays to the strengths of a shotgun with the massive burst damage. Reasonable range if necessary due to high power.

Shotgun Ammo: EDIT: AP does have to do with range because it clearly doesn't use choke. It's anti-armor, and bleed. If your enemy has armor and you don't care about bleeding him, use AP. Generally buckshot is the purpose of the shotgun. But against EXALT AP shotguns can be better than rifles.


Taser: Significantly better than melee stuns against non-wounded/flashbanged enemies. However it removes the only decent way to train melee.

Melee stuns: high melee -> tonfa, else capped str -> wooden club, else electric club.

Throwing: Caps at 70. Mostly you want to train using the godlike flashbangs until you reach the cap. Then you can use Bows, Knives, Stars which should be pretty good if the instakill Black Lotus Warriors are any indication. Still might want a moderate amount of firing training on the agent. Melee training shouldn't be necessary with that much closerange power.

I thought you were wrong about glocks, but I recently went through a bunch of Strange Creatures and Zombie Infestation Missions. Ext. Mag Glock really shined there. I think the auto-fire is overstimated, but being able to carry so many bullets is a blessing in missions full of monsters. Plinking zombies from afar and whatnot. Its also great to carry alongside agricultural flamers.

So its looking Beretta is actually the weakest of the three first pistols. Its stuck in a sad place between glock and .45. That extended mag really made the glock shine.

Yeah Small Shotgun is a emergency weapon. I pack it in case of zombies, pretty much.

Dunno about Sawed-Off, didn't use it yet.

What do you think about The Kludge?

Yeah Crossbow doens't work for early missions. Hunting Rifle shows up too early to make a difference. Otherwise it would be pretty dope early sniper weapon.

What do you think about melee lethal weapons? Recently I managed to kill dozens of zombies by baiting them into a billhook wielding agent over and over. Combat knife seems eh.

I just got flashbangs, they seem positively godly.

Do throwing knives arc?

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[Slaughter]

By the way, my opinion about Makarov was wrong: Its not a trash .45, its a trash Beretta.

Some more opinions:

- Hunting Rifle: Your first real sniping weapon. Wooo-hoo! 30 damage is better than all three starter pistols and MP5. The accuracy is fantastic. The only issues are the two slow shooting attacks, the weakish snap (but its a sniping weapon, so...) and only five rounds per clip. It allows you to plink the opposition from across the map.

Buy and carry lots of ammo.

- Agricultural Flamer: Needs more testing, but its a weird and interesting weapon. Its a weakish, short-ranged flamer. The attack is TU-cheap but overall it doesn't seem like a strong weapon. It produces fire with your attacks, and some enemies get super-hurt from those or run around panicking and on fire. Zombies get 400% damage from fire.

Its definitely a Strange Creatures weapon. It did pretty decent vs Reapers, but you need to either hide using entrances Reapers can't enter, or know how to bait Reapers without getting attacked (they are surprisingly fast). It can also be used to deploy walls of fire between your agents and monsters.

Never used it vs cultists. Seems mostly useless then, unless you are getting charged by multiple axe-wielding psychos.


- Billhooks: I have gained a newfound respect for those. 15 TU is a bit slow for melee, but damn if it doens't kill well with the right agent (high melee + strength + bravery). One or two swipes can kill zombies. I actually killed a lot by baiting them into melee reaction fire.

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[JustTheDude/CABSHEP]

Agricultural flamer is really only viable against Dimention-X "Swarm" and The Thing. Range is to short, usually by the time you have to fight with those, you can get flaregun that, while inaccurate has decent range.

[Thermite]

By the way, my opinion about Makarov was wrong: Its not a trash .45, its a trash Beretta.

Some more opinions:

- Hunting Rifle: Your first real sniping weapon. Wooo-hoo! 30 damage is better than all three starter pistols and MP5. The accuracy is fantastic. The only issues are the two slow shooting attacks, the weakish snap (but its a sniping weapon, so...) and only five rounds per clip. It allows you to plink the opposition from across the map.

Buy and carry lots of ammo.

- Agricultural Flamer: Needs more testing, but its a weird and interesting weapon. Its a weakish, short-ranged flamer. The attack is TU-cheap but overall it doesn't seem like a strong weapon. It produces fire with your attacks, and some enemies get super-hurt from those or run around panicking and on fire. Zombies get 400% damage from fire.

Its definitely a Strange Creatures weapon. It did pretty decent vs Reapers, but you need to either hide using entrances Reapers can't enter, or know how to bait Reapers without getting attacked (they are surprisingly fast). It can also be used to deploy walls of fire between your agents and monsters.

Never used it vs cultists. Seems mostly useless then, unless you are getting charged by multiple axe-wielding psychos.


- Billhooks: I have gained a newfound respect for those. 15 TU is a bit slow for melee, but damn if it doens't kill well with the right agent (high melee + strength + bravery). One or two swipes can kill zombies. I actually killed a lot by baiting them into melee reaction fire.

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Agricultural flamer is really only viable against Dimention-X "Swarm" and The Thing. Range is to short, usually by the time you have to fight with those, you can get flaregun that, while inaccurate has decent range.

Me, who can kill enemies with the agricultural flamer from rifle range...
"Oh sweet summer child!"

[Solarius Scorch]

I personally think the agri flamer's best quality is the ability to put tiles on fire to discourage enemies from stepping on these tiles. It's not foolproof, but can give you some advantage.

[Thermite]

I personally think the agri flamer's best quality is the ability to put tiles on fire to discourage enemies from stepping on these tiles. It's not foolproof, but can give you some advantage.

I never used it that way, but can see both the appeal and the techniques involved.

I am just an exploiter, though, which allows me to increase the range of the flamer greatly, and also make it more viable combat wise...

[Solarius Scorch]

How do you exploit to increase the range? Fire from roofs?

[vadracas]

I would expect that you can fire at a higher z-level and the flames settle down to the lowest occupied z-level after stopping.

[betatester]

I agree with all that was said earlier.
My reflection about early weapons and later

About early human technology
- Flamers of all kind are wonderful with the "don't come in the flamethrower range".
- the 45 pistol was my starting weapon (and still in the late game it's still the most used weapon even if I abandoned it long ago). Later it's replace by the magnum or,the Desert Eagle (depending of the drops) then by the BlackOps Magnum (if you're lucky you can have it fast on an MIB infiltrated farmer mission). Carry plenty of ammo.
- Land Mines: a very underestimated weapon. The key to survive Black lotus HQ.

Melee Weapons:
- The kukri for it's ability to destroy landscape even if it's not the best melee weapon it's small and can be carried just in case
- The Pickaxes for digging underground especially where using HE explosives is too dangerous

Grenades and explosive
I use them if I need a different type of damage in a one time solution
- standard grenades are cheap and buy-able quite fast. And they can arc so sometimes it's the solution
-incendiary grenades same as above. Once I dropped a grenade at my soldier feet with his last 2 TU and he has just discovered too many enemies in the vicinity. Better be wounded than dead
- Flashbang grenades to avoid reaction fire
- HE explosive as the last resort weapons against cyberdiscs, MIB in too tick armors for actual weapons and pre-primed against chrysalids
- later in game napalm genades against zombies in armor, stun grenades, EMP grenades
 Also dogs can carry pre primed grenades, drop them at their feet and gain gre,adier commendation (that increase strength)

My standard unit in mid gale carry; 1 flashbang, 1EMP (sometimes depending of the mission), 1 stun grenade, 1 napalm (sometimes more depending on the mission), and 1 incendiary as cheap napalm. If the soldier can a standard grenade too for. 1 HE explosives too

Launchers
You must have one in the group
- The basic grenade launcher with incendiary ammo.
- some other models later

Sniper rifles:
A special mention for the VSS Vintorez that has the concealable quality and therefor is usable in some missions

Shotgun:
I equip psi operatives with shotgun for the TU increase of the commendation. Shotgun ammo number is always a problem... think turbolaser shotgun later.
On mid late game I like the somic version of shotgun for its firepower
The toxigun is a shotgun and can sometimes be fun
The smart shotgun for a size 2 weapon.

Cannons
special mention for the Gas cannon, with incendiary ammo sor underwater missions

Blackops weapons
- Blackops magnum a must have, with tritanium ammo for your undercover unit
- Blackops sniper rifle a must have, until you get turbolaser sniper rifle
- Blackops auto sniper rifl. Your target is too close to you ? time to use the auto mode !
- Blackops LMG smartgun a must have for the gunner commendation (with tritanium ammo)
- Blackops Minigun a must have (with tritanium ammo) solution to heavy problems

The spypistol is usable in many undercover missions but I seldom use it

UAC weapons
Usable in space
UAC Nailgun one of the best range weapon usable in an industrial mission
Some people like the UAC rifle but I seldom use it

Turbolaser weopns
Rush for them ASAP, it's the solution to your ammo stock limit

Plasma weopons
- The heavy plasma gun is the anti muton weapon

Artifact weapon
- Plasma gauntlet, light, easy transportable, arcing plasma damage source. Against zombie in armor
- storm rose. too much damage to stun, usable in dreamscape. Usually I give it to my snipers for short range heavy damage solution
- Vibroblade wonderful melee weapon that trains bravery
- Heart grip staff, for heavy armor target and complicated maps since you can target through walls
- crossblaster from the meridian mission is a must have
- Incinerator as the ultimate flamer
- Sadly I couldn't found enough neural whips or flame launcher to use them but I really like them
-

[Slaughter]

Agricultural flamer is really only viable against Dimention-X "Swarm" and The Thing. Range is to short, usually by the time you have to fight with those, you can get flaregun that, while inaccurate has decent range.

Agri Flamer is a good anti-Reaper weapon too. Explosions and flames are fantastic against large enemies.

Me, who can kill enemies with the agricultural flamer from rifle range...
"Oh sweet summer child!"

Hi Thermite!

Also, wtf.

I personally think the agri flamer's best quality is the ability to put tiles on fire to discourage enemies from stepping on these tiles. It's not foolproof, but can give you some advantage.

Yeah, its a good defensive tactic. I think I beat a bunch of Reapers with it, they didn't manage to get close.

It seems to work against some enemies but not others. Megascorpions do, but Zombies don't care.

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[Slaughter]

What do you guys think about early long-range rifles?

Seems to me that its pretty straight from Hunting Rifle to Nitro Express Rifle. With Nitro and enough firing accuracy, you can deal around 70 damage, possibly higher. Hunting Rifle has a bigger clip, more accuracy and faster shooting, but Nitro simply kills more.

Bolt-Action seems like an inferior hunting rifle, wouldn't be bad if it popped up early. Mosin seems decent but eh. SKS seems better than hunting rifle due to ten bullets on magazine, but it doesn't have the power of the NER.

Nitro Express seems like the best early game long range rifle.

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[Thermite]

Hi Thermite!

Also, wtf.

A tip for you:
It all begins with gravity

[vadracas]

Ah, so my above post may have been correct.