Author Topic: Terrain Pack considerations  (Read 14904 times)

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #45 on: November 27, 2019, 07:20:30 pm »
Authorship is meaningless. Except that the author holds copyright, unless a contract (or TOS) exists that transfers it to someone else (e.g. commissioned work or employment etc)

I disagree. Authorship is always recognized, that's a basic right of every author and recognized legally, even when copyright changes.

If authorship wasn't recognized, do you honestly think that creators would bother creating and sharing stuff?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 07:23:44 pm by Hobbes »

Offline X-Man

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #46 on: November 27, 2019, 07:40:38 pm »
Now it is obviously to me, that someone doesn't know the principal difference between selling a product and donating as a gratitude. And the whole responsibility for each. Maybe it's because of overwhelming greed or just a lack of wisdom... I only hope that consequences of such action are awared.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2019, 07:44:00 pm »
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors%27_rights
Quote
Authors’ rights have two distinct components: the economic rights in the work and the moral rights of the author.
Economic rights are ownership (copyright).
On moral rights: "typically includes the right to be identified as the author of the work and the right to object to any distortion or mutilation of the work which would be prejudicial to his or her honor or reputation".
So ye you have moral rights on your work. But to restrict usage of it (unless derived work would slander your reputation) you have to employ copyright.

Quote
If authorship wasn't recognized, do you honestly think that creators would bother creating and sharing stuff?
Yes i think that. Many people just like creating for creations sake, and for having other people enjoy it.
On the other side, if noone would create/share without putting their name under it, wouldn't that mean everybody just does it for recognition?

Offline Mathel

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2019, 09:25:20 pm »
I spoilered the images up to take up less space
When I mean original content, I mean this:
Spoiler:







All my original creations.
I thought you created your own stuff.

Here is a reply to the first image.
SpoilerLarge images:

This is the first image, what I remembered to be from elsewhere, I circled. I circled it the same color in the place where it is from.

This is TFTD, unmodded, Port attack

The same port attack, different location

UFO Defence, forest

I will not say there is no new content. That would be untrue.
But there is also TFTD and UD content, sometimes recolored or flipped.
I ask you: Do you claim authorship of that as well?

Offline Yankes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2019, 09:30:14 pm »
I know I can keep using OXCE but if you so desire, I'll stop using it immediately and revert Area 51 back to OXC. And if OXC wants me to leave, I'll leave as well. So I don't understand the theoretical point that you're trying to make here. Do you want me to leave?
Do you read my conclusion? IF I did that I would f*** up whole community, that is my point, and I do not want do something stupid like this.

Offline robin

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2019, 09:47:02 pm »
100% original content here... robin
For the record I use a bunch (like 4-5) of sound effects taken from other mods (Piratez iirc).
Also I checked my MCDs and in my oldest tilestes I have about of half a dozen of tiles that I might want to make more distinct from vanilla (meaning they're only partially redrawn, unlike all the rest). Will definitely redraw them properly.
Just a clarification :)

Offline Meridian

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2019, 09:58:57 pm »
Sorry, poorly formulated by me.

I meant that you have (a lot of) content that is 100% original (i.e. made from scratch).
Not that 100% of your mod is original... I could not say this about any mod without spending an eternity checking all files :)

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2019, 11:29:03 pm »
I spoilered the images up to take up less spaceI thought you created your own stuff.

Here is a reply to the first image.
SpoilerLarge images:

This is the first image, what I remembered to be from elsewhere, I circled. I circled it the same color in the place where it is from.

This is TFTD, unmodded, Port attack

The same port attack, different location

UFO Defence, forest

I will not say there is no new content. That would be untrue.
But there is also TFTD and UD content, sometimes recolored or flipped.
I ask you: Do you claim authorship of that as well?
I´ve researched that topic for hours, if those screenshots would fall under microprose, OXCE or hobbes rights.
For all possible cases (original game, partially modded, 100% modded content/0% vanilla assets) there is no definitive answer.
Not that this brings this discussion any further. It just deeply boggles my mind... Complicated matter.
(varies between US/EU legislation and always is on a case per case basis)
However, that would make it not even 100% sure that you could post screenshots of your own mod, if you really wanna take that stuff serious.
(Granted, in most cases this is seen as definitely tolerated and within fair use rights)

Any case, this does **** up a lot of things that were a lot better before.
And for what?

Offline davide

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #53 on: November 28, 2019, 12:02:13 am »
I do not like this disaster :'(

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #54 on: November 28, 2019, 12:15:22 am »
Unfortunately that changes nothing for the mods.
But its very clear that the spirit of OpenXcom implies that mods should be open source (and maybe GPL) as well.
Sounds like a thing OXCE could demand/enforce on the mods. But I don't have the slightest clue if thats a good idea or not.
(Would have saved us this disaster though)

Offline efrenespartano

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #55 on: November 28, 2019, 12:17:17 am »
I'm slightly confused. What does this mean?

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Offline R1dO

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #56 on: November 28, 2019, 12:26:14 am »
I´ve researched that topic for hours,
...
Any case, this does **** up a lot of things that were a lot better before.
And for what?


@TheCurse
Complicated it is indeed, if only because the lines between original content and derivatives are blurred at best.

And yes this episode does bring shockwaves across the community at the moment, but i have the uttermost confidence we will eventually come out stronger.
For the most part we are a mature bunch of people that will find a way to deal with those issues. As is demonstrated by your efforts to research into the topic and the confidence to write down this is a problem you cannot give a definite answer to.

P.s. I wouldn't worry to much about screenshots. As you already said they are under fair use rights. An impression of what to expect, not a major component of your mod.

--- edit---
@efrenespartano
The openxcom code (and executables?) are released under GPL. This does not mean however that assets (mod files) are released under the same license. It does not mean that the GPL license applies to mods as well. Hence the conclusion of TheCurse that it "changes nothing for the mods".
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 12:43:11 am by R1dO »

Offline Hythlodaeus

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2019, 12:51:20 am »
Hello everyone,

I've recently noticed what has been happening around these parts and I've decided to chip in my brief experience with modding for OXC in hopes it will at least benefit others.

I must start by saying that it's never easy being a modder. I've only done minimal mods myself for OXC, but I've modded extensively for other games, and I can understand it is tough not having your work recognized and appreciated as often as it should be. If your mod gets popular to the point of becoming a foundation for other mods, you even risk having others taking credit for your work. Modding communities have been founded on the principle of sharing knowledge and giving credit to original authors, but growing communities often find their initial code of etiquette forgotten amid ever increasing numbers of content being produced by new people joining in.

From my experience as a modder one valuable lesson that I've learned, is that in order to keep your work under control, and other people to be respectful of it, clear and concise licensing must be a responsibility of every modder from the start. Establishing clear limits of what can and cannot be done with your art, where you derivative work begins and where someone else's work you modified ends is absolutely crucial.

Now, I'm the author of a fairly popular, if relatively simple mod used in a bunch of other modifications, notably the Amiga/PSX fonts mod. This mod was conceived from an original font found in the Amiga version of X-COM and it was extensively modified by me to support triple the amount of characters it originally did, along with modifying the original characters too for improved readability, What I determined from that point was the following:

a) the fontset was not actually an original part of x-com as it was present in some versions of the Amiga OS before the game existed.
b) tried as I might (and I searched a lot, and sent emails to forgotten Amiga devs) I could find no hint on who created the font or if any company had the rights for it, from which I presumed the content to be abandoned.
c) the extent of my work made upon the original font was enough that I could consider it to become a derivative piece of its own right, as two thirds of the characters in the fontset were my own artistic view on how such a font style would behave with extended latin, Cyrillic, Greek characters, and some new symbols.

From this point I released my mod and I licensed it specifically under CC-BY-SA, but was still careful enough to acknowledge the original author was unknown and to thank him/her in the readme. Under these conditions people are allowed to use my mod for both commercial and non-commercial ends, but they are always obliged to 1) credit me 2) share any modifications of the file under the same terms. This means any people improving upon my work would have to be nice and share their creations while acknowledging all the authors they derived their work from. It also avoids any confusion, and forces authors to print a notice containing the license name under which the original mod was made, effectively maintaining the etiquette, even if profiting from my work, which to be honest, I think it should always be allowed.

A few months later I had the idea of creating a set of  HD backgrounds and replacement BigObs for special alien weapons, and proposed SupSuper to commission them to well-known X-Com fan artist Android Arts. Only the latter got made, but during the process I warned SupSuper these also had to be specifically licensed as part of the OXC project. The CC-BY-SA license was once again chosen, as it is directly compatible with the GPL, used in OXC code, and would allow the OpenXcom package to be distributed without any copyright terms associated. People can freely use these bigobs in their mods, but they always have to credit Android Arts for that.

The conclusion here is that licensing your works accordingly from the start will avoid a lot of trouble in the future, and will make the resolution of any conflicts that arise with other modders a simple matter of enforcing the license terms originally set. I hope you all manage to find a solution for this issue, and if I have one request for Hobbes is to please not distrust other modders who have also put a fair share of work on their own creations, even if using yours as part of it. We're all in this boat together trying to make modding X-Com a wonderful experience for everyone. Let's all work out a solution that benefits all.

Offline Hythlodaeus

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2019, 01:03:41 am »
Oh and I must also add one further comment regarding the role of licensing, given I've seen expressed disbelief on their application: whether or not a license is made to be compliant is once again up to the responsibility of modders and it does at the very least give you legal and additional ethical footing to stand on. As of the moment the Terrain Mod Pack has no license and enforcing the terms now being specified by Hobbes is up to whether people actually comply or not to such a request, but should Hobbes want to pursue any legal action based on it, he may find himself lacking arguments there.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2019, 01:08:14 am »
@TheCurse
Complicated it is indeed, if only because the lines between original content and derivatives are blurred at best.

And yes this episode does bring shockwaves across the community at the moment, but i have the uttermost confidence we will eventually come out stronger.
For the most part we are a mature bunch of people that will find a way to deal with those issues. As is demonstrated by your efforts to research into the topic and the confidence to write down this is a problem you cannot give a definite answer to.

P.s. I wouldn't worry to much about screenshots. As you already said they are under fair use rights. An impression of what to expect, not a major component of your mod.

--- edit---
@efrenespartano
The openxcom code (and executables?) are released under GPL. This does not mean however that assets (mod files) are released under the same license. It does not mean that the GPL license applies to mods as well. Hence the conclusion of TheCurse that it "changes nothing for the mods".
I think the best way to go ahead would be everyone using someones stuff to ask for explicit permission once&forever, unless you trust them enough they don't pull this shit...
And then someone needs to make a ****ton of maps to replace the former favorite map pack.
After that this should be resolved.

Quote
should Hobbes want to pursue any legal action based on it, he may find himself lacking arguments there.
No license means "can't use". Highly doubt he´d spend money on legal stuff though.
But if someone actually considers legal action in a modding community... well wtf would that be. Its so bizarre I´m not sure if to laugh or to cry about it...
Sure as hell though, that´d make a lof of people really, really pissed.