Author Topic: Terrain Pack considerations  (Read 2888 times)

Offline betatester

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2019, 12:51:30 pm »
First I love your work and I recognize all the work you have done.
AFAIK Terrain Pack isn't compatible with FMP but FMP has a modified version of it in it that is compatible. So will you release a version of your mod compatible with other mods/megamods ?

Online Meridian

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2019, 01:04:40 pm »
AFAIK Terrain Pack isn't compatible with FMP but FMP has a modified version of it in it that is compatible. So will you release a version of your mod compatible with other mods/megamods ?

That's not how it works.

Hobbes cannot release a version compatible with other mods.

Other modders would need to release their mods compatible with terrain pack. But that's practically impossible (both by openxcom engine limitations and by practicality of the mod implementation and installation). Terrain pack is effectively a standalone mod incompatible with every other mod from now on.

Offline Ethereal

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2019, 01:43:32 pm »
First, I want to thank the author of the Terrain Pack for his gigantic work.

My mod uses the Terrain Pack of a very old version. No changes made. I never thought that everything would be so serious. The author can familiarize himself with my mod and https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5724.msg119911.html#msg119911 if he decides that his rights are violated, I undertake to correct everything according to the requirements of the author.

Offline R1dO

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2019, 02:39:14 pm »
@Ethereal.

Since Hobbes already stated his assets are off-limit you can safely assume that if you use the Terrain Pack you have to take steps to correct it, no need to ask him to familiarize first.

Also, have you considered the idea you might be one of the modders that sparked this reaction?

I downloaded the last 2 versions of your mod (from https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5724.msg107718.html#msg107718 and https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5724.msg119911.html#msg119911). Neither one (nor the forum thread) credits any other mod for as far as i can see, while clearly using assets from them.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2019, 04:13:55 pm »
Just a random thought. Maybe mods should have specific licenses?
To avoid similar situations in future.

For example, i guess for Terrain Pack, most appropriate would be CC NC SA:
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

(I'm not saying Hobbes should license his mods under this license, i'm just giving example)

It's not the first time I've considered such a license, but the issue has always been that I am not the author of all the assets in the TP since 4-5 were written by other UFO2000 authors.

Besides, if people want to abuse they don't care if it has a CC license or not. I've seen blatant theft such as my 700 page XCom fan fiction being posted in a site, chapter after chapter, by another guy claiming to be the author.

And the only thing that stops that kind of abuse is vigilance, licenses mean nothing, when the modder that is using my TP/A51 terrains has this kind of attitude when I tell him I don't accept donations.

And here's a few things that the person that created this whole issue said to me when I asked him for explanations and told him that I refuse my work to be used for donations without even asking for permission and exercised my rights as an author:

"You are credited, so if they want to send money as thanks for YOUR part of the job, they're free to do so."

"But if you want to, I question your motives on why you have entered the modding scene in the first place."

"you're basically trying to destroy the community. I will honor your request... up to the point where you can half-seriously claim "autorship", since most of your work is based on other people's work, let's not pretend."

"I don't throw away people's gifts because some lunatic whose work I used according to the free sharing traditions of the modding scene had a rabid bout of greed and envy."

"I will also personally no longer consider you a honorable member of the modding scene."

"No. If the modification/improvement outweights original work to the point it is no longer the same thing, I won't remove them. I will honor your request only to the reasonable extent."


From this exchange I learned the following:
1) This person has ZERO appreciation for other people's work and thinks that other modders are there to serve his wishes.
2) This person has NO idea of the work I put into creating those terrains and thinks I just copied things around.
3) If left unchecked, this person will continue to use it in an abusive manner and against the author's wishes.
4) This person thinks he owns somebody's else's work just because he changed it.

And if it is inconvenient for every, this is what happens when trust is broken. I trusted modders in the community would respect my wishes, and I never needed licenses. Since I can't trust that anymore, because 1 person doesn't respect my rights as an author, then I will control my original files.

Otherwise, and after this incident, I have no doubt that one day I'd see a half-baked game being sold as an app that uses the terrains I created.

That's not how it works.

Hobbes cannot release a version compatible with other mods.

Other modders would need to release their mods compatible with terrain pack. But that's practically impossible (both by openxcom engine limitations and by practicality of the mod implementation and installation). Terrain pack is effectively a standalone mod incompatible with every other mod from now on.

Glad you joined in, since I have a few technical questions.

I've been working a lot in .json rulesets for another game and one of the things it allows is to perform merges across mods.

With .yaml is it possible to load the Terrain Pack first, and then modders perform whatever changes they want on it on their mods through rulesets?

Also, one of the things I'm thinking going to add to the .rul file are yaml anchors, so that other mods only need to specify the TP anchor (maps, mapDataSets) if they want to use those resources in derivative terrains.

« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 04:30:42 pm by Hobbes »

Online Meridian

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2019, 04:45:15 pm »
I've been working a lot in .json rulesets for another game and one of the things it allows is to perform merges across mods.
With .yaml is it possible to load the Terrain Pack first, and then modders perform whatever changes they want on it on their mods through rulesets?

No, the player would have to specify the correct load order of mods manually.
Also, with 2 dependent mods there is (fortunately?) always a solution... but as soon as you consider 3 mods or more, the solution might not even exist.

Also, openxcom does not support any kind of ruleset attribute merging (with very few exceptions not relevant to the general discussion), only full attribute replacement is supported.
If a modder wants to do any change to your ruleset (e.g. list of terrains for a deployment or texture), they have no other choice than to copy it and modify it.

Also, one of the things I'm thinking going to add to the .rul file are yaml anchors, so that other mods only need to specify the TP anchor (maps, mapDataSets) if they want to use those resources in derivative terrains.

Not supported at all.

3) This person thinks he owns somebody's else's work just because he changed it.

I honestly hope you will use the same rules for your derived work too.

For example, you don't own anything derived from TFTD (or UFO for that matter).
Just because you changed it, doesn't mean it's yours.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 04:47:03 pm by Meridian »

Offline Mathel

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2019, 05:05:27 pm »
I do not mod OXC, nor OXCE, but this makes me worried.

I do believe that, if no licence is specified in the mod upload, Hobbes does have the right to stop others from using his mod and assets.

But on the other hand, if everyone did this, the larger mods would collapse.
I have read credits in the files of both XPiratez and XCom Files. They are long.
As it stands many maps in the mods will already have to be replaced.
What happens if Falko decides tommorow, that he/she does not want people to use their "disassembling alien clips and explosives for Elerium"?
Or if any of the other contributor decides to hold back what they made?

To prevent this collapse, I'd introduce two rules.
A) By uploading a mod, one would agree to a specific licence, one that would allow free copying and use. This would require purging previously uploaded all mods, which were not uploaded under this licence.
B) No asking for donations in mods themselves. What they do in other places is up to them, but modders should not ask for money inside their mods.
       My reasoning for this is: Yes, we are not required to pay them to play this mod. But we also do not nescessarily know how much is original content. It would be unfair it if one mod was a copy of another, with just a section added asking for donations.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2019, 05:42:05 pm »
No, the player would have to specify the correct load order of mods manually.
Also, with 2 dependent mods there is (fortunately?) always a solution... but as soon as you consider 3 mods or more, the solution might not even exist.

Also, openxcom does not support any kind of ruleset attribute merging (with very few exceptions not relevant to the general discussion), only full attribute replacement is supported.
If a modder wants to do any change to your ruleset (e.g. list of terrains for a deployment or texture), they have no other choice than to copy it and modify it.

Not supported at all.

Thanks for the explanations. The loading order is exactly what I expected, the yaml anchors is unfortunate, but if that's how it works, that's how it works.

I'm perfectly aware that if I'm establishing a standard, I'm the first one who should follow it. But it's never inappropriate to remind people of this.

Quote
For example, you don't own anything derived from TFTD (or UFO for that matter).
Just because you changed it, doesn't mean it's yours.

Everything that is staying to the Terrain Pack, that's derived work or other author's work, and properly identified and credited. This includes all the Geoscape terrains I created out of the UFO/TFTD originals, the Island/Port/Ship terror sites and UFO2000 terrains, and the modified Geoscape I edited for everything to work (that's derivative work). It also includes all the rulesets and additional assets required for the new Geoscape to work, which I mostly coded or created myself, with the individual contributions also already properly identified.

This is all derivative from the originals (a.k.a. mods). But the alterations done were all made for me. And I do not allow the modified files I made to be used in other mods anymore. Either use the Terrain Pack, or spend hundreds of hours modifying the original files as I did. 

Everything that is staying in Area 51, that's original work. With the individual contributions made by other authors also properly identified and checked. Terrains like Area 51 or Complex are also derivative from the originals, and several still use the original MCD files. But I created all the other files required (MCDs, PCKs, MAP, RMP), which are about 1000 or more files. Plus I designed the layout of all those maps, and I designed all the route files used by the AI, and I designed several dozen unique tilesets for them, plus all of the rulesets to make it work.

So I consider those terrains as originals of mine, with the proper collaborations identified and credited (tileset images). And I do not allow anymore for any derivative works to be made and used of them. Either install the mod, or create your own.

And anyone says that these terrains are derived from somebody else's work, that person is gonna have a hell of a time to prove it.

And if people are pissed that all the work they put into those derivative works can't be used anymore:
a) Respect the author's wishes
b) Create your own material instead of simply copying and modifying other authors
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 06:23:58 pm by Hobbes »

Offline X-Man

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2019, 06:30:02 pm »
Or if any of the other contributor decides to hold back what they made?

Yes. This is exactly the main goal.
Do you think this person lived in a vacuum and didn't know about any kind of donations? Of course not! At least the topics about it here on the forum have been sticked since a very-very long time. It's a known fact.

Again. No one - NO ONE - sell their mods, and as far as I know some people, they will never do such thing. All donations are voluntary. It is such trivial thing at nowadays, so I'm in some kind of a stupor about all this hype around.

I love OXC, some mods and admire the titanic work behind it. Such a conflict bothers me, because I'm pretty sure that it will push the wave of negativity (already pushed actually) through all the community. Everyone will start to "protect their rights", and this will discourage almost everyone of mod makers, this will destroy the product line in some way. Are you sure you want such a collapse? I don't think so.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2019, 06:49:39 pm »
And anyone says that these terrains are derived from somebody else's work, that person is gonna have a hell of a time to prove it.
I´m pretty sure its the other way around. As you´d be the accuser ("you derived your stuff from mine"), you´d have to prove your claim.

Quote
This is all derivative from the originals (a.k.a. mods). But the alterations done were all made for me.
...
Create your own material instead of simply copying and modifying other authors
Not even sure how to comment on that.
"Don't use my mod. Don't mod my mod. Create original content instead." Yet this is all about a mod, created by you.
Prime example why copyright and mods don't really mix.

One day I´m gonna copyright "Copyright" and just not gonna let anyone use it.
Ah drat, there´s prior art already.  :'(
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 06:51:53 pm by TheCurse »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2019, 07:03:40 pm »
Yes. This is exactly the main goal.
Do you think this person lived in a vacuum and didn't know about any kind of donations? Of course not! At least the topics about it here on the forum have been sticked since a very-very long time. It's a known fact.

I was never properly informed when they decided to ask for donations, which they did long after those mods started using my files.

It was not my duty as the author to check every mod who uses them for policy changes regarding donations - it was their responsibility.

And they chose not to ask if I was OK with this, even though I had the right as an author to be informed and they had the duty to do so before enacting any changes.

And if this issue about donations is so widespread, why didn't they act before something like this happened?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 07:05:55 pm by Hobbes »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2019, 07:09:02 pm »
"Don't use my mod. Don't mod my mod. Create original content instead." Yet this is all about a mod, created by you.
Prime example why copyright and mods don't really mix.

Copyright and authorship are two different things.

Have I ever mentioned copyright throughout this entire thread?

No, because the issue here is proper use and credit of the assets created. And there are plenty of guidelines already used by modding sites precisely to protect those.
 https://help.nexusmods.com/article/18-terms-of-service

« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 07:12:44 pm by Hobbes »

Online Meridian

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2019, 07:12:16 pm »
Everything that is staying to the Terrain Pack, that's derived work or other author's work, and properly identified and credited. This includes all the Geoscape terrains I created out of the UFO/TFTD originals, the Island/Port/Ship terror sites and UFO2000 terrains, and the modified Geoscape I edited for everything to work (that's derivative work). It also includes all the rulesets and additional assets required for the new Geoscape to work, which I mostly coded or created myself, with the individual contributions also already properly identified.

This is all derivative from the originals (a.k.a. mods). But the alterations done were all made for me. And I do not allow the modified files I made to be used in other mods anymore. Either use the Terrain Pack, or spend hundreds of hours modifying the original files as I did. 

Everything that is staying in Area 51, that's original work. With the individual contributions made by other authors also properly identified and checked. Terrains like Area 51 or Complex are also derivative from the originals, and several still use the original MCD files. But I created all the other files required (MCDs, PCKs, MAP, RMP), which are about 1000 or more files. Plus I designed the layout of all those maps, and I designed all the route files used by the AI, and I designed several dozen unique tilesets for them, plus all of the rulesets to make it work.

So I consider those terrains as originals of mine, with the proper collaborations identified and credited (tileset images). And I do not allow anymore for any derivative works to be made and used of them. Either install the mod, or create your own.

And anyone says that these terrains are derived from somebody else's work, that person is gonna have a hell of a time to prove it.

And if people are pissed that all the work they put into those derivative works can't be used anymore:
a) Respect the author's wishes
b) Create your own material instead of simply copying and modifying other authors

I don't want to start any disputes, I am just stating the obvious... and actually using the same words as you are.

I fully respect author's rights to his original work... we have a lot of people with 100% original content here... robin, bulletdesigner, XOPs, etc.
Including you.
But by far not all work you did resulted in original content... and you cannot make any claims to non-original content. Just like you require it from everyone else.

Consider the attached image from mod.io from Area51 mod.
Anyone who looks at this sees this is 95% TFTD... and there is no need to prove anything. It's obvious.

As you said, and I quote: "This person thinks he owns somebody's else's work just because he changed it."

You do not own the work and the original content of Microprose, just because you changed it.
Format conversion in any form or shape does not produce original content.
Cosmetic changes also do not produce original content.

Do not use the same arguments as "this person", otherwise you are no better than him.

This was my last comment to this topic, I'll let SupSuper and Warboy judge any conflicts between you guys, I want nothing to do with this... I hope they will see the world with open eyes, and that nobody gets any preferential treatment over anyone else. Fair is fair! Author's rights should be respected, false claims should be ignored (and punished if necessary).

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2019, 07:17:07 pm »
Copyright and authorship are two different things.
Authorship is meaningless. Except that the author holds copyright, unless a contract (or TOS) exists that transfers it to someone else (e.g. commissioned work or employment etc)

EDIT: to clarify, I don't mean "meaningless" per se, just in the context of restricting use.
If you author an article and it gets published, you can't restrict its usage anymore just because you´re the author, since you gave away copyright when publishing.
(not by publishing itself, but its always required, for exactly that reason)
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 07:21:19 pm by TheCurse »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #44 on: November 27, 2019, 07:19:05 pm »
You do not own the work and the original content of Microprose, just because you changed it.
Format conversion in any form or shape does not produce original content.
Cosmetic changes also do not produce original content.

When I mean original content, I mean this:








All my original creations.