Author Topic: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion  (Read 1477 times)

Offline Abyss

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The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« on: January 21, 2019, 07:47:27 pm »
There is a sense that the zombie-cryssaid transformation should take some time. Not 5 minutes, which I suppose are equal to 20-30 turns, but for 1-2 turns for sure. That would allow, at least, the hellerium blood *infection* to make one-two circles through the blood channels of the organism.

And a zombie-chrysalis could die not hatched if killed within these 1-2 turns.
Even with some random or increasing chance of actual transformation with each following turn.

What would you say?

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 08:26:33 pm »
With a combination of scripts and OXCE armor parameters this is certainly possible to do in a mod, but who wants to make chryssalids less scary?

Offline Abyss

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 09:02:43 pm »
With a combination of scripts and OXCE armor parameters this is certainly possible to do in a mod, but who wants to make chryssalids less scary?

Fair enough for a perfect terrorist appearance, but then there has to be something to prove the possibility of such *fast* metamorphosis. The Lore behind it.
The story rightaway is that Cryssalid puts the eggs and they somehow grow into a whole new heavily plated guy in 5-7 seconds. 
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 09:07:21 pm by Abyss »

Offline Kzer-Za

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2019, 10:48:09 am »
With a combination of scripts and OXCE armor parameters this is certainly possible to do in a mod, but who wants to make chryssalids less scary?

Could you please explain how to do it?

Regarding the concern that it would make them less scary — I think that giving them "isLeeroyJenkins" more than makes up for it. Of course, I haven't had the chance to test the combination of these two changes, since I don't know how to make this delay, I only tested isLeeroyJenkins alone. But if I am not mistaken, it makes them like almost 5 times scarier, so it would more than make up for the delay.

And I feel that the delay is necessary because if the Chryssalids had metabolism rate fast enough to develop from an egg to a fully grown organism in a second, then they must also have 100% health recovery, so that if they are not killed in one turn, they restore from 1 HP to full health by the next turn. And also make them only 20% vulnerable to all types of damage to reflect the fact that they regenerate almost more quickly than you can inflict it. For me, to have consistency they either have to have this high regeneration, or have a delay of hatching, at least three turns.

As I said, there are other ways to compensate for this delay. People who do not agree with it can stick with the original model, but for my personal installation I would very much like to make this change.

And gameplay-wise it would make the player prioritize dealing with the fresh zombies quickly. Currently you have to avoid killing them unless you have the firepower to deal with the hatched Chryssalid in the same turn. This change would force the player to make dealing with zombies quickly the first order of buziness. It would be especially nice in Snakeman-initiated terror missions by making the player hurry up because the quicker he acts, the less Chryssalids he have to face. Of course now you also have to hurry, to prevent zombification of civilians. But this delay would give an additional incentive to hurry and hunt the civilian zombies in the first several turns.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 11:15:39 am by Kzer-Za »

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2019, 03:05:33 am »
but who wants to make chryssalids less scary?

You don't know what he plans to do with the ability. You don't have a basis to assume it'll make his Chryssalids less scary. For all you know, he'll make them fire a ranged attack that can zombify an entire squad in one turn, and the zombies will be juggernauts that fire blaster bombs out of their eyes.

Offline Meridian

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2019, 10:59:55 am »
You don't know what he plans to do with the ability. You don't have a basis to assume it'll make his Chryssalids less scary. For all you know, he'll make them fire a ranged attack that can zombify an entire squad in one turn, and the zombies will be juggernauts that fire blaster bombs out of their eyes.

Surprisingly enough it turns out it is you who don't know what he plans to do with the ability.
We have a very good basis not to assume, but to know for certain, that he effectively wants to make them less scary. It has been discussed on the piratez discord server directly with him.

Next time, try not to assume too much and know better than all the others ;-)

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2019, 02:31:00 am »
I'm not assuming anything. Much to the contrary, I'm suggesting you don't assume as much. Maybe this time you spoke with him, but you still don't know what other modders would do if they shared in his work. This is part of a bigger issue in which, when someone suggests a feature, you guys shoot it down on the basis of assumptions about how they will use it. Aside from it being rather petty and selfish to try and police the way other people build their mods, the fact remains that you don't actually know what their plans are if they haven't told you, and even if one modder has told you what their plans are, you still don't know about the plans of other modders who might use the same resources.

Modders shouldn't have to defend why their suggestion fits within a specific box you want it to fit within. If you don't want to make their suggestions on such a basis, that's fine, nobody can tell you what to do. But you shouldn't take it as though your ideas on how mods should work are some ultimate code of good modding style. And it's rude to second-guess the modder's intentions.

Offline Meridian

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2019, 02:54:12 am »
Thanks for patronizing me, again.
It's rude, but I forgive you.

I could turn every single argument in your reply against you, but I don't see a point anymore.
I don't have to defend myself here and I won't.

Maybe just one thing to think about... I've added countless features I don't agree with, or even plain hate, into OXCE.
I wonder if you would be so generous if you would be in my place.

Have a nice day.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2019, 05:44:35 am »
Aside from it being rather petty and selfish to try and police the way other people build their mods, the fact remains that you don't actually know what their plans are if they haven't told you, and even if one modder has told you what their plans are, you still don't know about the plans of other modders who might use the same resources.

They are the authors and they're doing this on a voluntary basis. Why wouldn't they have the right to decide about what it is asked of them? Plus no one is stopping these people from creating their own fork and adding whatever they want.

Quote
Modders shouldn't have to defend why their suggestion fits within a specific box you want it to fit within. If you don't want to make their suggestions on such a basis, that's fine, nobody can tell you what to do. But you shouldn't take it as though your ideas on how mods should work are some ultimate code of good modding style. And it's rude to second-guess the modder's intentions.

Either you learn coding or yes, you do have to defend your suggestion to developers. And the specific box you mention is many times not dictated by a developer's personal wishes but by objective limitations of the game, and the potential to introduce new bugs and conflicts, which means even more work for them, because I don't see modders debugging the features they ask for.

Meridian and the other developers' time is a very scarce resource. So they better filter the suggestions and requests the best they can, because they're the most qualified people around here to do so. And say no as many times as needed. I heard no a few times and I'm glad that someone is taking such decisions otherwise it would be chaos.

To end, you have a lot of ideas and opinions, and I mean this as compliment, because I enjoy discussing them with you on Discord even though many times we don't agree. But modders need to learn how to filter their own ideas, between what's possible and what's a pipe dream.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 06:11:37 am by Hobbes »

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2019, 10:14:17 am »
Either you learn coding or yes, you do have to defend your suggestion to developers. And the specific box you mention is many times not dictated by a developer's personal wishes but by objective limitations of the game, and the potential to introduce new bugs and conflicts, which means even more work for them, because I don't see modders debugging the features they ask for.

I have no qualms with the OXCE devs simply saying no. I'm talking about the language used to say it. Saying "no" is entirely different from saying "but who wants to make chryssalids less scary?" This is a common insinuation I've heard several times from certain members of the community, especially Meridian.

Another example:

"The missions are easy enough already.
Don't think any developer will agree to implement something to make the base defense even easier."
Meridian, [DONE] Making more UFO sizes attack your base

This one launched into an argument in which Meridian insisted that not only was my idea going to make base defense easier, but that doing so is somehow a wrong way to mod the game. All I was asking for was more granularity. There are any number of ways I can then adjust the difficulty to where I want it. If I want it hard, I can make it so. If I want it easy, I can make it so. I would have accepted a simple no. I have no desire to pressure any of the OXCE devs to implement stuff for me. What bothered me was the tone, that my ideas are somehow wrong, or the patronizing assertion that I'm trying to make the game easier (as if I couldn't just mod in cheats to achieve that). And those who say this (mostly Meridian) hide behind their developer status, defending their hurtful words by pretending that the discussion was about whether or not the feature will be implemented, and not about the tone of the response.

(I can't find any other examples due to the search feature basically being non-functional and I'm not getting much from Google)

I recognize that people often find my words hurtful. But I apologize and try to get better. Often people misinterpret my words, and the thing that bothered them wasn't even something I meant to come out of my words. But I still accept that the way they feel is valid, and I take the blame for it. I think we all just need to be a bit more civil here, and consider other people.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 10:17:12 am by The Reaver of Darkness »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2019, 03:31:02 am »
I think we all just need to be a bit more civil here, and consider other people.

I'll subscribe that. A final thought that I find useful to remember myself during these type of discussions: "Misunderstandings and neglect occasion more mischief in the world than even malice and wickedness. At all events, the two latter are of less frequent occurrence." - Goethe

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2019, 12:09:27 pm »
yeah, let's keep it civil, we're all on the same side here.

Offline Yankes

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Re: The zombie-cryssalid transformation delay suggestion
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2019, 10:24:42 pm »
yeah, let's keep it civil, we're all on the same side here.
I'm on alien side :D