What to do with Zombies?

[Arthanor]

Either a cure or a proper end? Keeping people in cages as zombies is rather disrespectful as well.. what do you think happens when you "sell" them?

I'd say a "cure" that gives manufacturing project to turn zombies into... actually can't you produce soldiers? That'd be a cool way to get them. You give them back control over themselves but they're now strobger/faster/something because all their blood is this crazy substance, so they can't really go back to normal and they join you instead? Otherwise the cure could just give some blood plasma and cost money (you take the crazy blood out, replace it by proper blood and return the people as "well they got into a car accident and we just realized who they are, that's why they're so messed up".

Or just a project to give them "medical aid to die" because there's no cure and keeping people like that indefinitely isn't better. Then you return a corpse that's already "prepared" to the family, which usually includes removal of fluids any ways.

In fact, I think selling of most live (and even dead) specimen is pretty weird. It'd make sense for the accumulation of so much evidence of alien presence to become a problem for xcom and you either incinerate them or build more holding cells/cold storage for corpses. Selling them for a profit is weird. Who do you sell a live chupacabra to in good conscience? Unless it's fluffed as giving it to a government lab of a funding nation for money.. but then you should also be able to give "long term care" of zombies off to them too, which I guess is what selling them is..

Anyhow.. some rambling on the topic.. Maybe it helps somehow... I think a fluff article could be good.

[Solarius Scorch]

Either a cure or a proper end? Keeping people in cages as zombies is rather disrespectful as well.. what do you think happens when you "sell" them?

In my opinion it's not really disrespectful, or at least not any more than in normal medical facilities. (A bit different due to, umm, special circumstances, but still.)
And what happens if you sell them? I don't know, you decide.

I'd say a "cure" that gives manufacturing project to turn zombies into... actually can't you produce soldiers? That'd be a cool way to get them. You give them back control over themselves but they're now strobger/faster/something because all their blood is this crazy substance, so they can't really go back to normal and they join you instead? Otherwise the cure could just give some blood plasma and cost money (you take the crazy blood out, replace it by proper blood and return the people as "well they got into a car accident and we just realized who they are, that's why they're so messed up".

Both are perfectly valid options.
Comments, anyone?

Or just a project to give them "medical aid to die" because there's no cure and keeping people like that indefinitely isn't better. Then you return a corpse that's already "prepared" to the family, which usually includes removal of fluids any ways.

This is fine too, although I think it's too detailed for the game of this level of command. I could just as well give them a negative selling value to simulate all this.

In fact, I think selling of most live (and even dead) specimen is pretty weird. It'd make sense for the accumulation of so much evidence of alien presence to become a problem for xcom and you either incinerate them or build more holding cells/cold storage for corpses. Selling them for a profit is weird. Who do you sell a live chupacabra to in good conscience? Unless it's fluffed as giving it to a government lab of a funding nation for money.. but then you should also be able to give "long term care" of zombies off to them too, which I guess is what selling them is..

This is a problem since 1994, and I think yet another instance of "you decide" - it doesn't matter for the game if they are sold to good scientists or evil military researchers. At least not at this point.

Anyhow.. some rambling on the topic.. Maybe it helps somehow... I think a fluff article could be good.

Sure, I'll cook something up after hearing more opinions.

[Nord]

About cure of zombiizm - it is a great idea indeed. Dont know about make them soldiers, though. Modern soldiers are more training results, than physical conditions.
About return to family - definitly no. I even say NOPE. Read something about quarantine, anti-epidemical measures, so on. Burn them to cinder is more realistic idea. Better burn twice.
About selling live aliens - dont be so soft. There is over 7000000 scientists in world (according to unesco). Lets say that 1000000 of them are biologist. Ok, 500 000. How many of them want to look at xenobiological species? I think more than half. And do you know how many military scientists exist? They definetly not in unesco list. 
By Lore, x-com strongly connected to secret services. These guys not bother about morale and feelings at all.
So, my opinion: if our world encountered an alien invasion, we must cut out antigrav implants from live floaters, recycle zombies for elerium-infused biomass and grow tamed chryssalids, trained to eat only their previous masters. As we, humans, do. And maybe create reaper chivalry.

[Solarius Scorch]

About cure of zombiizm - it is a great idea indeed. Dont know about make them soldiers, though. Modern soldiers are more training results, than physical conditions.

Yeah, but these are agents, not soldiers. Which means they suck.
Still, a police agent at least knows how to shoot straight, so I agree.

About return to family - definitly no. I even say NOPE. Read something about quarantine, anti-epidemical measures, so on. Burn them to cinder is more realistic idea. Better burn twice.

You mean a cured, self-aware person? Really?

About selling live aliens - dont be so soft. There is over 7000000 scientists in world (according to unesco). Lets say that 1000000 of them are biologist. Ok, 500 000. How many of them want to look at xenobiological species? I think more than half. And do you know how many military scientists exist? They definetly not in unesco list. 

Yeah, but nobody was saying there would be no interest... Arthanor's point was more about whether it's ethical for X-Com to do so or not.

By Lore, x-com strongly connected to secret services. These guys not bother about morale and feelings at all.

Yes, but as I said, there isn't much difference between being good or bad, since the consequences of either aren't shown in the game. So you can decide yourself if your organization is sickeningly good or evil. I simply think it's the right design approach.

So, my opinion: if our world encountered an alien invasion, we must cut out antigrav implants from live floaters, recycle zombies for elerium-infused biomass and grow tamed chryssalids, trained to eat only their previous masters. As we, humans, do. And maybe create reaper chivalry.

While I can't do some of these things (due to technical or balance reasons), I can't really argue.

[Nord]

You mean a cured, self-aware person? Really?

No, i'm about dead body.

[Drasnighta]

You see, I am perhaps a little old school in the way I think.


But a Zombie basically has two definitions....  And it depends entirely on weather you're Haitian or not.

Essentially, a Zombie is an animated corpse.

Animated, yes, but still, a Corpse.  Removing the Animation form a Zombie, nets you...   a Corpse.

For most, the difference is weather the person was living or dead to begin with...  Most of the time, its Dead (but that's where the Haitian Zombie blurs the issue...)...  Which further perpetuates the fact that, a Zombie is an Animated Corpse.


If you remove the Animation or Root Cause from a Zombie, and get something other than a Corpse...  You didn't have a Zombie to start with...

So although a mass infection may produce something with zombie like symptoms...  They don't actually create Zombies...

So, how do you "Cure" a Zombie?  You destroy its animation and then you treat the Corpse with as much or as little respect as you treat corpses in your society.  For some, that's more than others, to be sure.  Especially given expressly dangerous and desperate situations...




(And lo and behold.  Remove the Animation behind a Haitian Zombie...  And you've still got a Corpse...  And perhaps a desperate need for an Alibi on a murder charge...)


...

Of course, this post has been less than helpful, and if anything, just Zombie-Stirs the Water even Murkier...  have a nice Day

[Solarius Scorch]

Well, "Zombie" is a colloquial name, probably given by X-Com agents... They're not "true" zombies, just like the werewolf is just a mutant, not a shapeshifting human. But I appreciate your diligence in keeping the right terminology.

[Drasnighta]

Of course, of course


Just pointing out the question of what to do is vastly easier to answer when you're dealing with actual Zombies

[Solarius Scorch]

Just pointing out the question of what to do is vastly easier to answer when you're dealing with actual Zombies

Yeah, that's why I started this thread.

Still haven't decided what to do. I kinda like recruiting them on the force, but it doesn't make much sense, since in most cases they're hardly agent material... This isn't Piratez. Maybe some other entity than agent, but I have no idea why.
Pity you can't get points from manufacturing projects, then you could simply use them to show the Council what a cool guy you are. (Manufacturing a useless "item" - cured zombie patient - which then can be sold for 0 or whatever.)

[Nord]

(Manufacturing a useless "item" - cured zombie patient - which then can be sold for 0 or whatever.)

And gain scores!

Meanwhile, i look into your ufopaedia text:

These infected humans have been completely overtaken by an alien parasite. They possess little cognitive capabilities and show no higher brain functions; in fact, their brains are mostly consumed by the parasite.

So, even first grade zombies lost their humanity. If a brain is dead, then it's dead. Even if you remove parasits safely, they not become peoples they were before.
Instead of it i can propose only one recipe: gain control over parasites, force them to work as missing brainparts. So it will be not cure, but anti-symptome vaccine.

[Solarius Scorch]

And gain scores!

Yes, either by selling this item or producing this item, it doesn't really matter.

Meanwhile, i look into your ufopaedia text:
So, even first grade zombies lost their humanity. If a brain is dead, then it's dead. Even if you remove parasits safely, they not become peoples they were before.

Oh yes, their memories are likely all gone. It's not a question of bringing back the same person, at least not without amnesia.

Instead of it i can propose only one recipe: gain control over parasites, force them to work as missing brainparts. So it will be not cure, but anti-symptome vaccine.

They kind of do that already, I mean compliment the brain to maintain its relevant functions. I don't want to spoil too much, since the Zombie arc is only half done, but essentially Zombies can become much smarter. And it's essentially human type of intelligence, since the parasite itself is dumb like a caterpillar and doesn't evolve.

[Nord]

I don't want to spoil too much

Yes, i looked inside .rul files and saw some odd things, waiting me in future...

dumb like a caterpillar and doesn't evolve.

Wow, wow, easy. Caterpillar now is pretty smart. I know many people  more stupid than it. 

[Solarius Scorch]

Wow, wow, easy. Caterpillar now is pretty smart. I know many people  more stupid than it. 

OK, point taken... Perhaps a better analogy would be those Braconidae which take over a caterpillar's metabolism.

[Arthanor]

In my opinion it's not really disrespectful, or at least not any more than in normal medical facilities. (A bit different due to, umm, special circumstances, but still.)

Zombies are kept in animal cages, that's pretty hard to spin as respectful treatment. I imagine them aware and raging at the bars in there, worse than normal animals which will give up, because they have the need to sustain/grow their parasite. If they were kept in normal human people cells or med bays, then yes, it might be respectful.

Yeah, but these are agents, not soldiers. Which means they suck.
Still, a police agent at least knows how to shoot straight, so I agree.

Shitty starting stats (except good Stam, STR, HP and bravery since they went through being a zombie, have crazy adrenaline but are a bit disconnected, so hard to scare and can't aim), mediocre training caps (so you can't just fix the problem in the gym, because they don't learn very well in tame conditions, they need to be fired up), great stat caps (physically they're awesome, and when you get them to work up that crazy adrenaline, they can "reconnect" and learn/do great things)? That would be an interesting motivation to bring one bad agent per mission, just because if you keep them alive, they'll become really good. Also extra motivation to keep zombies alive instead of killing them all.

Other than that, I don't see much that adds to the game and keeping the selling as now is probably fine. Just a bit unfortunate that it gives an incentive to kill the zombies instead of the other way around.

[Solarius Scorch]

Zombies are kept in animal cages, that's pretty hard to spin as respectful treatment. I imagine them aware and raging at the bars in there, worse than normal animals which will give up, because they have the need to sustain/grow their parasite. If they were kept in normal human people cells or med bays, then yes, it might be respectful.

Yes, I can see your point of course, but remember they are lab "cages", probably with glass walls and spotless shiny white floors, not XIX century circus cages with iron bars*. I just think animal cells are more representative of what is required to sustain a Zombie than a cell for a human criminal. Anyway the game doesn't really go into such details, maybe they just keep the Zombies sedated or hibernated all the time.

Shitty starting stats (except good Stam, STR, HP and bravery since they went through being a zombie, have crazy adrenaline but are a bit disconnected, so hard to scare and can't aim), mediocre training caps (so you can't just fix the problem in the gym, because they don't learn very well in tame conditions, they need to be fired up), great stat caps (physically they're awesome, and when you get them to work up that crazy adrenaline, they can "reconnect" and learn/do great things)? That would be an interesting motivation to bring one bad agent per mission, just because if you keep them alive, they'll become really good. Also extra motivation to keep zombies alive instead of killing them all.

These are all very interesting thoughts, but there are certain technical difficulties with it; making a self-aware Zombie with human intelligence would require Elerium-based technology, which generally comes much later. I'll keep these ideas in mind.

Other than that, I don't see much that adds to the game and keeping the selling as now is probably fine. Just a bit unfortunate that it gives an incentive to kill the zombies instead of the other way around.

I fully agree, hopefully a better idea will come up

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* I think I might need to edit the battlescape map, lol.