Author Topic: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons  (Read 6712 times)

Offline AncientSion

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 106
  • Ave Caesar, morituri te salutant.
    • View Profile
Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« on: May 17, 2016, 01:54:57 pm »
Just thought i would open a Topic to discuss a bunch of things in regards to the GAL weapons that you can invent versus stuff that you find yourself.
I.e. Is there a need/use for certain Gal weapons or are they all redudant, as it appears to me ?

Basicly, early inventable weapons like for example the Linux SMG arent useless per se, however, they arent really more useful than Assault SMGs or Blackmarsh SMGs, both of which you are very likely to have earlier than you could have the Linux SMG, not considering the opportunity cost of aquiring the Linux SMG tech+++ as opposed to more "useful" tech.
The same also goes for more advanced custom weapons down the road, like the ability to produce Boarding Guns, and the bigger variants / Custom Shooters. They are good, *but* outshined by anything you can aquire via loot, and that is by only taking conventional weapons into the comparision. Not even considering the really good stuff like Laser, Gauss, Plasma.

In general, i like the idea of using custom guns, but i believe they are simply not worth the effort to research / produce as opposed to using looted stuff.
I usually sell that single starting Boarding Gun as soon as i aquire Machine Guns, which is like AGES before i could in theory unlock Boarding gun production myself.

The only exception, to me, seems to be Blunderbluss, which is by itself a great weapon compared to the other 5 ! shotgun types (conventional)
If you take into account Chem Ammo, it becomes really, really good, even better than the Combat Shotgun, which i like a lot.

Also, Blunderbluss can lead to Kustom Blunderbluss, which is just a truly excellent shipping assault weapon, again because of the Chem Ammo by itself. A snapshot at Point blank kills a lot, but an autofire salvo does 4 shots and can melt anything...Not sure Blunderbluss would be as good if it couldnt use Chem Ammo, so that by itself speaks Volumes about the power Chem (same is true for the Magnum...chem ammo is like a tad OP to me).

I havent really used stuff like the Deathblossom SMG, but i believe they are probably also inferior all things considered ?

Long Story short, i think custom weapons could maybe need 2 things to make them competive compared to COMMON loot

- Greatly cut down on the tech prerequisities
- A bunch of common loot weaponry greatly benefites from the fact that you can manufacute PS Ammo and/or loot them with Chem Ammo, while most ? custom Guns do not offer this Kind of upgrade. Perhaps expanding Chem ammo or EP ammo to custom guns would make them a more viable choice to follow up.

Right now, i would not bother producing these guns, because "better" guns are readily available, more effective, do not "waste" Research effort and do not require materials apart from producing PS /  Chem ammo for them.

If anything has a playthrough experience where the majority of the game was done using custom guns, i would like to hear some opinions / experience Reports.

Offline Rince Wind

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 569
    • View Profile
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 02:17:28 pm »
One thing is that you don't depend on finding at least as much ammo as you use up, as you can produce your own.
I prefer the boarding gun to the machine gun because it is more flexible, as it can do more than autofire, though I hardly use it as it is so heavy. The Linux SMG is the only one I use currently, because it packs quite a punch.

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 02:20:33 pm »
Custom-built weapons are intended to kind-of-suck initially (compared to the store/loot selection), but I won't claim that the balance is nowhere near perfect. It will be certainly harder to research ammo manufacture for looted weapons in the future. The store/self-production balance is intended to favor the store initially, with self-made weapons being more quirky and less 'overall effective' (shootas can deliver a huge amount of hurt for example).

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1893
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 02:29:14 pm »
Linux does need a buff imo. As is it is only useful if the first few months go poorly. Even then i would go boarding gun line.

Boarding gun and its later iterations are pretty good imo. 46 base dmg exceeds most guns even with PS ammo available. The line topping out at 6 shot auto fire is also pretty good. However its not a rifle its a short range assault gun and must be used a such to be effective.

Death blossom is actually excellent for what it is. A short range one handed close quarters gun. However call for such a tool is limited. But excellent ammo selection including acid rounds that add shotgun effect. Good accuracy for a one hand automatic and 4 extra tiles of accurate range. Above average burst size at 4 shots. Very effective for those outfits that have a hand filled like plate mail+shield or medic.

 

Offline Cristao

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 03:15:25 pm »
Been trying out the custom guns in my new playthrough and sad to read Dioxine's comments that they purposefully suck. I was looking at the Commando Gun, Bozaar (sp?) and the Death Blossom on my next crash landing / pogrom.

Offline ivandogovich

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2390
  • X-Com Afficionado
    • View Profile
    • Ivan Dogovich Youtube
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 03:28:02 pm »
I'm getting pretty far along in the tech tree, and I've been using custom guns a fair bit.

The XG line gives a much faster Gauss capability and I've been upgrading to them and they have been useful.  I used Death Blossom for a while, and it was nice to give it to gals that needed to hit a lot to improve accuracy.  I tend to favor incendiary over chem, and I found its API round very effective. 

Early on, Clockworks could be nice point blank weapons, and when I got gas rounds I thought they would be great for my Milk Runs.  I loaded out the B Team with them and took down an Excavator, but I found that they killed almost all of the squishies so they have been shelved ever since.  The three shot limit is their other drawback.

I am using the custom laser line alot, as having a 2X1 infinite ammo weapon is just really good.  I keep them in the off-hand of snipers and plink accross the map with them after flying up, when I don't have enough TUs for their main gun.

Blackops shot gun with plasma rounds (Heat) is very nice.

The Cougar SMG is Sick, though.  Super fast, and puts out nice damage, and is 2x1.  One of my favorite weapons in the game.

But back to starting techs, yeah, I pretty much ignored Boarding Guns and their lines in favor of the HMG for one sniper.  Tried using the Linux for a while, but ended up with Gauss muskets, and Reticulan Plasma guns as my main Late Early game to Mid game workhorses.

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1893
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 03:44:40 pm »
some further thoughts:

Bozzar is actually a very good gun on paper but its stuck halfway between a Heavy autofire gun and a sniper while being outclassed at both jobs by other guns at similar tech level. 

Commando rifle very good on paper but again its a hybrid between sniper and assault rifle while doing neither exceptionally. The early iterations of the type(scoped carbine etc) actually fair much better because you need the accuracy early game and much less competition for the rifle role.

 


Offline GarlandSP

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 07:36:11 pm »
As for the Linux SMG, the name obviously comes from the Linux operating systen.

The Linux SO is known for its costumization capacity so a person ( brainer ) with enough knowledge can customize it to fit diferent uses...

While i used it succesfully in my first run, I think the problem with the SMG is its lack of customization.

For example adding electro-shock ammunition ( laser damage ) as many other firearms would be a nice addition, also there should be research that allows it to upgrade itself for example:

  • Add the option for an ACOG scope once sniper rifle has been researched ( increase in accuracy )
  • Stabilizer ( better auto-shot performance )
  • Shock rounds ( laser damage )
  • Gauss coil barrel ( Extra damage )
  • computer assistance ( less TU )

So the manufacturing process would be the same as in armor, for example you build a common Linux SMG, then you add the ACOG and get a Scope Linux SMG, then you add the Stabilizer and you get a Shooty Linux SMG ( with both the scope and the stabilizer ), then you add the Gauss Coil at the barrel and get a Dakka Linux SMG ( with the scope, improved barrel and stabilizer ) and finally a Nerdy Linux SMG with the Computer assistance Interface.

The idea would be to extend the life span of the weapon, it is not meant to replace XG or EuroSyndicate weapons.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2016, 07:38:22 pm by GarlandSP »

Offline a0kribu

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2016, 01:29:47 am »
some further thoughts:

Bozzar is actually a very good gun on paper but its stuck halfway between a Heavy autofire gun and a sniper while being outclassed at both jobs by other guns at similar tech level. 


Really strange that you would say that. In my experience Bossar is the best gun by far at the point you can get it at. It's an ultimate standard-issue gun imo, even passes that magical penetrate 50 armor on average shot mark.

Give me a few examples of what outshines it's damage output at the standard ~25-10 tile engage ranges and I will show you math to prove you wrong.

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1893
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2016, 02:43:24 am »
First in competing with sniper riles. Sniper rifles have higher damage because they have stat scaling between 20%-30% of firing skill and in some cases higher base. TU usage and accuracy is comparable.

Against heavy weapons you are competing with the Vulcan RFG which is both sooner on the tech tree and has both unlimited auto range and 15 more shots in a burst. Similar accuracy. Vulcan has greater dmg per TU efficiency although it does pay a higher up front TU cost.

In the rifle mid-range slot i feel the bozzar loses out due to weight. IMO the midfield needs flexibility which often equates to more items types and extra weight. Spending 42 of max 90(before armor) weight on the primary gun is not particularly attractive. Smartrifles are available at a similar level of advancement, are slightly above 1/4 the weight and significantly greater volume of fire due lower TU costs particularly in aimed. Also more ammo per clip. The damage loss is tangible but i find anytime you need to handle a target that can ignore 40 base dmg your your probably already calling for your bombs and fire support anyway. There is just not a great deal of enemy units at 40 plus armor that are not either resistant to pierce or have so much armor that you need huge punch anyway.   

Offline Dioxine

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • punk not dead
    • View Profile
    • Nocturnal Productions
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2016, 03:24:06 am »
As for the Linux SMG, the name obviously comes from the Linux operating systen.

  • Add the option for an ACOG scope once sniper rifle has been researched ( increase in accuracy )
  • Stabilizer ( better auto-shot performance )
  • Shock rounds ( laser damage )
  • Gauss coil barrel ( Extra damage )
  • computer assistance ( less TU )

The idea would be to extend the life span of the weapon, it is not meant to replace XG or EuroSyndicate weapons.

I like it, although the gun could easily remove the need for any other guns with so many upgrades :)

And bozar is just like I wanted it to be. Seemingly almost OP good but definitely outclassed by specialized weapons - it's the ultimate jack of all trades.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 03:26:04 am by Dioxine »

Offline a0kribu

  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2016, 04:14:33 am »
Against heavy weapons you are competing with the Vulcan RFG which is both sooner on the tech tree and has both unlimited auto range and 15 more shots in a burst. Similar accuracy. Vulcan has greater dmg per TU efficiency although it does pay a higher up front TU cost.

First up. It's still ages till I can get my hands on a RFG but I have had Bossars on my team for a month so the results may vay.
Second up. All the "bigger" firepower doesn't do squat if you can't apply it. You walk three steps and it's game over for the Vulcan/sniper rifle.
You need something that lets you move and shoot.

In the rifle mid-range slot i feel the bozzar loses out due to weight. IMO the midfield needs flexibility which often equates to more items types and extra weight. Spending 42 of max 90(before armor) weight on the primary gun is not particularly attractive. Smartrifles are available at a similar level of advancement, are slightly above 1/4 the weight and significantly greater volume of fire due lower TU costs particularly in aimed. Also more ammo per clip. The damage loss is tangible but i find anytime you need to handle a target that can ignore 40 base dmg your your probably already calling for your bombs and fire support anyway. There is just not a great deal of enemy units at 40 plus armor that are not either resistant to pierce or have so much armor that you need huge punch anyway.

Look. Reality of the situation is that you can not issue guns that can't pass 40 armor. You will be effectively issuing no gun.

Lets take Osiron Security as our baseline troop here (you do have to kill them):
https://imgur.com/7SvJQUC
Lets for the sake of simplicity say that his effective armor is 45 (50 front, 40 sides).


Bossar:
62.5% of the time you will deal damage to the target.
Average effective damage per shot is 37.5HP.
Expected damage per shot is 23.43HP.

Aimed 1 shot at 115% of 60 damage for 70% TUs
1 volley is expected to deal 23.43HP damage, killing the target in 2 volleys.

Auto 5 shots of 65% accuracy of 60 damage each for 42% TUs
1 volley is expected to deal 76.14 damage on the average, killing the target in 1 volley.


Smartrifle:
46.8% of the time you will deal damage to the target.
Average effective damage per shot is 10.99HP.

Aimed  1 shot at 115% of 46 damage for 48% TUs
1 volley is expected to deal 10.99 damage on the average, killing the target in 4 volleys.

Auto 5 shots of 50% accuracy of 46 damage each for 38% TUs
1 volley is expected to deal 27.47 damage on the average, killing the target in 2 volleys.


The 49 weight is a small price to pay for this.

Offline GarlandSP

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2016, 05:25:07 am »
I like it, although the gun could easily remove the need for any other guns with so many upgrades :)

And bozar is just like I wanted it to be. Seemingly almost OP good but definitely outclassed by specialized weapons - it's the ultimate jack of all trades.

It was just an idea, if you could upgrade custom guns you could expand its useful life, and you can use the same armor mechanics for upgrading, as i said i dont mean to have a gun that would replace others like a reticulan laser, XGs or EuroSynd weapons.
If you really liked the idea i believe other veteran members of the forum could help balance the idea, if its on your interest.

Offline legionof1

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 1893
  • Bullets go that way. Money comes this way.
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2016, 06:07:16 am »
a0kribu very clearly we will not get anywhere debating this. We both get results with our chosen items. Time to drop it before we get too heated.

Offline Mattdo

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Pirates custom weapons vs loot weapons
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2016, 12:28:48 pm »
I love the Vulcan RFG. 20 powerful shots, accurate enough even at extreme range, and unlike the HMG you get to use 30% of your TU to get into position.
The trick is (a) to use the classic spotter/sniper combo, only your sniper is a maniac with a gigantic machine gun, and (b) use the Control button to order your 'sniper' to fire even if she can't see the target. Just because there's a tree and a brick wall between you and your target when you start firing doesn't mean they'll still be there when you finish.