[piratez] Buffing suggestions

[Yankes]

No, definitely not a stupid idea, I wasn't saying it was. But I try to base the mod on the codebase that is present... Also, while this seems interesting, it'd add another variable to balance out Another way of doing this would be some sort of Armor Damage Threshold - any attack stronger than it would do normal armor damage (like a penetrating shot would). The example formula (that'd replace current damage formula if the threshold is defined) would be something like:
Armor damage = 0.1 * (Attack Damage - Armor Damage Threshold)
Instead of: Armor damage = 0.1 * (Attack Damage - Current Armor Value)

This is on TODO for 3.0 or after it. Probably first thin I will add is how damage react to armor. All it will be up to modder. Flat/Percent/Random/Based on hand items (shields anyone?), any thing you want (or at least what you mange to write).

[The Think Tank]

So in short, what I see from this analysis, debuff buckshot (from 22x8 to 20x10 perhaps), and buff mil and heavy shotguns (perhaps by bumping their Snap range to 8, so the slugs work better - the hv. shotgun fires 28x3 slugs which is already equivalent to a rifle's autoshot). Combat shotty is too weak with 20x5, maybe up to 22x5. CAWS might use a slight range increase too.

That could work, personally, I think that giving Shotguns armor damage would be a quick way to make them the end-all-be-all weapon of choice, I think that the DB and SDB are fine as they are, a long-term solution would be to give them different ammunition available, maybe acid rounds or an upgrade to them so you could produce a laser version of them (imagine how awesome it would be to have a sawed-off laser shotgun, makes me drool thinking about it), much like what you have done with the Tommy Gun. The Combat Shotgun is good, but could probably use a small buff, your suggestion of 20x5 > 22x5 would probably be enough to see them used more often. Again, seeing some different ammunition for the Combat Shotgun would increase its longevity, and give more reason to pay its costly price tag. The Domestic and Heavy Shotguns I don't have too much experience with, I find the Heavy SG to be good with what little experience I have with it, but it could maybe benefit from higher range and/or accuracy. The Domestic Shotgun I have never used, its damage just seems too low. Maybe a buff from 18 DPP (Damage Per Pellet) to 20 DPP would help it out, but it is also unique by being able to chamber stun rounds, a little indecisive on that one. Hopefully these suggestions help out, I can mess with the ruleset and see what these changes would od if you would like, but I think this would make Shotguns in general better, without being OP. 

[Dioxine]

1) Shotgun armor damage: yes, that's what I fear. If you want to use them in that role, sure, there's acid ammo.

2) DBS & SO were supposed to fade into obscurity as the game progresses, but that lazor ammo is indeed tempting! Not sure the role, probably just the same but with more damage & bit less pellets. This has to be more advanced than EP ammo and probably would require rebuilding the weapon. What you get would be a weaker version of the Space Rangers Shotgun. The earliest laser shotgun was supposed to be the Niner/EP, but nobody will use that weapon ever anyway

3) Combat Shotgun does get incendiary ammo when you research Explosive Munitions.

4) Domestic shotgun is supposed to be a piece of junk.

[Arthanor]

That could work, personally, I think that giving Shotguns armor damage would be a quick way to make them the end-all-be-all weapon of choice

I doubt that. In most cases, having a weapon which can actually kill your target is much better than one that can slowly wear them down. Taking a security guard in personal armor, you are much better tossing ~2 black powder bombs their way or charging with a melee weapon than trying to wear them down with shotguns. And if you really need to lower something's armor (like a high rank target that you want to stun), you're better off with acid flasks which aren't that hard to get.

[yrizoud]

In most cases, having a weapon which can actually kill your target is much better than one that can slowly wear them down.

This "10%-effectiveness against armors" is the weakness that you get in exchange for the advantage of "200%-effectiveness against unarmored groups"
At 10%-effectiveness, I would take the risk for half of my frontwomen. At 0%, this is just too risky that I don't have enough weapons/ammo to complete the mission.

Also, consider how the AI is rudimentary, it doesn't choose a weapon, and doesn't care if your gals are armored or not. If the damage system includes such "chip damage", the enemy's mindless shooting becomes more serious, because every hit does something.

[The Think Tank]

1) Shotgun armor damage: yes, that's what I fear. If you want to use them in that role, sure, there's acid ammo.

2) DBS & SO were supposed to fade into obscurity as the game progresses, but that lazor ammo is indeed tempting! Not sure the role, probably just the same but with more damage & bit less pellets. This has to be more advanced than EP ammo and probably would require rebuilding the weapon. What you get would be a weaker version of the Space Rangers Shotgun. The earliest laser shotgun was supposed to be the Niner/EP, but nobody will use that weapon ever anyway

3) Combat Shotgun does get incendiary ammo when you research Explosive Munitions.

4) Domestic shotgun is supposed to be a piece of junk.

Imagine a SO with 30x6 pellets *drools* me wanty. (Maybe a lazor SO and DB should get a *small* accuracy buff, to keep them relevant, they could be like a poor-man's Space Ranger SG)

[Arthanor]

This "10%-effectiveness against armors" is the weakness that you get in exchange for the advantage of "200%-effectiveness against unarmored groups"
At 10%-effectiveness, I would take the risk for half of my frontwomen. At 0%, this is just too risky that I don't have enough weapons/ammo to complete the mission.

Also, consider how the AI is rudimentary, it doesn't choose a weapon, and doesn't care if your gals are armored or not. If the damage system includes such "chip damage", the enemy's mindless shooting becomes more serious, because every hit does something.

This was in response to the "risk" of armor damage making shotgun the be all end all weapon. We are under no such risk as far as gal armament is concerned and I do appreciate their value against unarmoured ennemies, hence my asking if we might see more of them to create more situations were shotguns are good (deep ones and some early factions are such).

Your point with the AI is true, and it would be a nice addition for them. Often a npc with shotgun is more dangerous after panicking and dropping it because then it is more likely to use explosives. Giving some teeth to shotguns pellets is good, provided they can scratch the heavier armor or tanks.

[Dioxine]

provided they can scratch the heavier armor or tanks.

Shotguns. Against tanks. Really people, this is getting ridiculous.

[Meridian]

Shotguns. Against tanks. Really people, this is getting ridiculous.

Of course not, that would be ridonculous!
Everybody knows the best weapon against armored cars is (Thor's) hammer.

Btw. since the hammer is now useless anyway... would you like a feature that a weapon can destroy terrain, but cannot harm units (or does only a fractional, not full damage against units)?

[Dioxine]

Btw. since the hammer is now useless anyway... would you like a feature that a weapon can destroy terrain, but cannot harm units (or does only a fractional, not full damage against units)?

It is doable with current OXCE commands. A weak weapon that has a large bonus damage vs. terrain. Pickaxe, for example, works that way. So does Plasma Scorcher but it's hardly harmless against units

Also it is quite interesting how a weapon got from godly to 'useless' by just by lowering its attack speed by mere 1/6 th

[Meridian]

Glad to hear it's already possible, Yankes is doing a really good job, but maybe more promotion would be in place so that other modders start considering the switch to OXCE.

Also it is quite interesting how a weapon got from godly to 'useless' by just by lowering its attack speed by mere 1/6 th

Oh yes, such small difference is enough when you classify weapons only with two grades (useful or useless) like me. It's either one or the other, nothing between. Maybe the wording is a bit confusing, I guess "worth it" and "not worth it" would be better.

[Dioxine]

Promotion would be good, but I'm very bad at promoting/entertaining skills, it's more of a job for you (especially since your mod became pretty much an essential addition to OXCE)

"Not worth it" is something I understand. If the hammer is (borderline) not worth it as a melee weapon, then I'm happy with how it's balanced - it still has uses like breaking tough terrain or attacking up/down an elevator (or even against low-flying targets ).

Also yes, I will be working on introducing more enemies and missions where starting weapons would shine. Not sure what to do next - Ivan suggested moving 'Origins' to a later phase, so maybe it's time for adding more hi-end enemies that'll appear in the second year of the game.

[Boltgun]

Yes, I think that shotguns simply require less enemies with armor. The probability of finding a security guard is too high.

With a low TU use shotgun and a black powder bomb, you should have a decent equipment.

[yrizoud]

I just realized that shotguns are actually the best kind of main weapon for the front-line rookies who have to go indoors.
(When you don't have elite scouts in heavy armors, you use what you have)
They are safer by being able to kill quickly at this range, the experience is welcome, and in the unlucky case where they discover an armored enemy, the girl who becomes powerless had probably low strength, so her total damage potential was not very high in the first place.
Shotgun + dynamite : The "Blood" starter pack

[Dioxine]

That's the idea here - there wasn't supposed to be any early weapon to cover every tactical situation. To get the best of available guns, you need to diversify them. A combination of weapons where each one 'sucks' can still be very effective. It is supremely boring when everyone simply packs the currently best gun. My goal was to create more roles for specialists and more ways of approaching various problems. I don't consider it a problem if a shotgun is ineffective versus some types of enemies. Like in a modern army, where you won't say an anti-aircraft system "sucks" just because it can't take on battle tanks, right?