OpenXcom 1.1

[robin]

I didn't imagine the situation to be this dire. I started modding relatively recently (with 0.9 already out) so I don't know how it was before. I started using nightlies because the sheer amount of new pro-modding features was too appealing to pass (my aliens mod are still 1.0 compatible actually). If you want nightlies to go "under the radar" I think a new milestone (so called 1.1) should be made, there's just too much difference with 1.0 at this point. And then *maybe* (I don't know) come up with a solution so modders don't have tons of new features "locked" in nightlies for 1 year or so after the milestone. I can turn off the "frenzy mode" if it's for the best of the project, but please don't leave me behind too much, I'll get frenzy again if you do (I don't know if there are that many modders that use nightlies, could be that they're just very vocal?).

(I also didn't expect nightlies to be stable or retro-compatible, I though they were the wild west; and actually finding them reliable encourages people in using them).

My intention in writing my 2c in this topic wasn't to make people flip tables. I apologize if I did.

[Gifty]

I don't want to sound flippant or insensitive, but wasn't Volutar banned for this kind of abrasiveness? Did I miss something?

[alienfood]

My intention in writing my 2c in this topic wasn't to make people flip tables.

I'm mostly with Robin on this: I don't want to take sides in a debate, don't care that much about mods, etc, if I offered an opinion it was as a free exchange of ideas between people who love this project. I'm very grateful for anything that is out there, very grateful to all the devs etc, and nobody is going to be the supsuper usurper.

OpenXCom has taken my favorite game of all time, which happened to have been released in 1994, and made it fun again in 2015. I had no idea that 100k people agree. That is a very remarkable achievement.

[Arthanor]

I think most modders do things that work under both the nightly and 1.0. Stuff like adding XCom weapons/armors/crafts and tweaking the research/manufacture.

The "need" for the nightlies mostly comes from players and a (few) avid modders. A fair few invested (=vocal) players will want to use features like 2 weapon tanks and will get convinced to install the nightly even if it is a bit more complicated in order to take advantage of a mod that offers it. Once the player uses the nightly, more ambitious 1.0 mods (dealing with aliens/deployments/missions/etc.) stop working so other modders decide to "upgrade" to address the issue.

If we could get a 1.1 milestone soon after the currently ongoing alien mission redesign, it would encapsulate everything we have so far (and include more new features like the possibility to have terror/artefact-like missions so the cutting edge modders can take advantage of it). Then even the casual players who installed 1.0 could upgrade since it's no more difficult to install one milestone than another, so we actually gain in terms of following for the modern OpenXCom.

From then on, developers could be free to do the next large scale "game breaking"/unstable work that's needed for TftD, release it nightly for those who want to be testers while not worrying about breaking the game for players. Players and modders would be happy with a stable 1.1. Once the next "major feature" or "big step to TftD" is implemented, we can get 1.2.

Is releasing a milestone complicated? Or could it not just be a matter of "Alright, new feature X has worked as intended for the past week, we patched a bunch of bugs, here comes milestone 1.Y"? Something like: "Multiple fixed weapons implemented, players want it -> QC -> Make milestone -> work on something new", "The map script works as intended -> Make milestone -> work on next feature" and soon "Mission redesign completed -> Make milestone -> work on new feature".

Nobody is going to complain if we get milestones every few months. It's much less work than compiling a nightly every week or even day and is a rate that modders can cope with easily in terms of updating mods to keep them working.

Plus, seeing the digits after the 1. go up gives everybody a sense of excitement that TftD is coming closer!

[ivandogovich]

Arthanor, I like how you think.  My perspective is really from the player, and hobby modder (not an overly ambitious one).  Nightlies feel like a bit of a moving target for me, and I've been pretty happy with 1.0.  I know Volutar is pretty unhappy with me continuing to advertise 1.0 in my LP, and feels like that just freezes the project in the past, and doesn't help push the project forward.  I really don't know if that is the right perspective or not.  I'd be satisfied with a Quarterly milestone or something, but I'd also be happy right where I am.

I think I am most disappointed that SupSuper has gotten so frustrated that he's ready to disengage from the release process and just work behind the scenes.  I completely honor and value his role in the project, and I feel like his contribution is incredibly important. 

Most importantly, I want the Dev team to know that I for one, support them and just want to facilitate whatever it is they are doing.  If feeding them Scooby Snacks would help, I'd set up a constant supply to ensure they had everything they need.  

[volutar]

First, may I remind you, that you were the one that pushed into renaming the stables as milestones, because you always found them "old and buggy". You were the one that pushed into making the nightlies more prominent on the site, if not just make nightlies the only way to download the game.

Because people keep using outdated version. Temptation to use "stable" no matter how old it is, really inevitable. That's why I wanted to make nightlies more available and prominent. Because we lack of good thorough tests. Only players and LPers can get into situations. And what's the point of them getting into already fixed situation inside of obsolete version?
But obviously people still prefer "milestones" over the nightly (as you stated 100/10 is the ratio). What can we do? Just to make another milestone, apparently. Why are you surprised with that logic?

You are always pushing for major changes and features for the sake of "vanillaness" which often lead to a lot of problems and bugs to be fixed later down the line.

That's the developing concept. You won't get any progress otherwise. You can't make things entierly bugless with the first try. Good testing is important.

You were involved in all the recent major structural changes to the game just for TFTD vanillaness, like map scripting et all, which create a whole lot more issues.

As far as I remember, this update didn't cause LOTS of issues. You're exaggerating.

In fact if it was up to you 1.0 would never have been released because it wasn't "good enough".

Yeah, if it was up to me, Currenty we would have 0.95 or something. But it doesn't mean we woulnd't make milestones. Number is irrelative here.

But sure, act surprised, insult the devs, slander our work, claim only you know what's best and just want "stability".

Insult devs? Are you kidding? I'm one of them, I'm feeling responsibility of what's going on with the project, and I can't stand aside and ignore not wise (from the perspective) decisions. There was no schedule plan in the first hand. Whole project was like "as it goes", and for you it was surprise that it came to so trustful vanillish state. Frankly, not lot of people trusted it CAN be that trustful. But I trusted what I knew. Because I was the one who digged insides of vanilla and made them replicable with that level details. If not with this project, then with another.
And really, "stability" is not of my concern. It's what players are expecting. Not lots of people are willing to test bugs and help BY DEEDS project evolve (not only by words). The only way to do that - is either block really outdated milestone version from loading (which is bad), or keep up milestones.

Second, "1.0 was full of hilarious bugs". That's funny, we've had over 100k downloads of 1.0, and I've never seen anyone suffering from such major game-breaking bugs that completely ruined their experience and made it impossible for them to play and enjoy the game.

Oh, come on. Really?
There's a list of what was fixed since 1.0: fire didn't spread (at all); after been hit AI woke up towards any, not towards the shooter (as it should be); AI got stuck at barn's windows; celatids didn't miss and  could spit through entire maps; radar ranges were generally smaller; radar ranges of the alien ships were 3 times less -> 10 times less chances to retaliate => need to artificially adjust detection chance for higher difficulties; retaliation didn't stop even after base defense mission is won; wrong soldier experience allocation; sporadic battlescape crashings and hangings (due to direction of facing, or MCing by aliens and blocked paths); wrong kneel TU reserving; sometimes broken autosaves; smoke was always illuminating; melee accuracy really wrong (it was almost 110); landing time was 5 times shorter => almost no chances to get to landed UFO in time; blocked vision for diagonals; free grenade prime for AI; tanks got vanished after ufo defense "repel" screen; wrong 20th turn logic; reaction/los distance mismatch; promotions were wrong; annoying "hidden" walk under panel (quick animation); offset of fire origination caused mass "no line of fire" and corner hits. Plus different QoL things, like inventory templates and armour cloning with RMB.

The project cries for the next milestone. No matter how many of TFTD features are implemented.

I just don't feel postponing next milestone until full list of TFTD features gonna be completed (until summer in best case) is right decision.

[Meridian]

Yeah, I also know my share about the pressure from the community.

@Devs: after a certain level (and I think we've reached that level already)... just do whatever you think is best. With sufficient amount of people on the forum, you will find all sorts of people. People who will have different opinions, different priorities and different attitudes. You will find people who love the project, who like it, who dislike it, you will find trolls and you will even find people who will (willingly or accidentally) hurt the project. You will find people who know how to listen and collaborate, but you will find also people who think only they are absolutely right and everybody else is absolutely wrong. You will find people who know what your work is about and how much time it consumes, but also people who have no idea and their first post will be why is TFTD taking so long? (It is basically the same game, it shouldn't take more than 2 weeks, right?)

Well, that's how it is.

You cannot listen to everyone; and for OXC's sake please don't try to satisfy everyone.

I honestly wish you strong nerves and endless patience with us, mere mortals.

I support any decision you will make (except stopping the project of course) and look forward to new features, new mods, new TCs and everything else. It doesn't matter if it takes 2 weeks, 2 months or 2 years! Just do whatever you feel is right.

[hellrazor]

First of all, i am gone say that so far this project seems to be a success and the entire developer team put a lot of effort into it to rewrite this awesome game which we all love so much, for us, with us, for themselves.

It's a matter of fact that the last release Version, which was 1.0, seemed to a great success. People accepted it, Let's player started playing it, promoting it on Youtube etc...

It is also clear that a release version usually should go through a testing phase, a code review, which lead to major bugfixes and so on. But this is something a small Opensource Project maybe not able to handle, because it requires much more resources, more people to review the code etc.. So you are basically stuck with bugs which get reported from the people who play the game. This has obviously happened as the difference between the newest nightly and release 1.0 in terms of fixed bugs and stability of the game has been greatly increased (i so far never had any crashes from openxcom itself, mostly Mods not finding files (case sensitivity and so)).

And since it is now nearly a Year since Version 1.0 has been officially released, i would recommend implement Missionsite stuff, fix whatever bugs there are (which are known), fix them. Make a big anouncement release it as Version 1.1,
not only Modders would profit from that but also a load more people which give free advertisement (the let's players), which tend to go for release Versions, because not anybody is willing or able to compile code itself, or install the required libraries.

Keep working on the TFTD support, release your changes over the nightlies and when you have reached a state in which the basic features for TFTD are implemented, do a new release. Fix bugs over nightlies, so people have the ability to upgrade whenever they like.

I mean come on you've done a great work here be proud of it and make it known!
People want this game, give it to them

[darkestaxe]

Nightlies have no compile requirements on windows, do not need external libraries, or anything else. In fact they are simpler then the release version which has an installer. You do have to copy the original game files yourself or put it in the same folder used by the release version installer though.

I'm all for a 1.1 sooner rather than later with only currently known and easy bugfixes, which is already done.

I say it's damn time for an unofficial 1.1 - so I'm doing it.

[Warboy1982]

I say it's damn time for an unofficial 1.1

you say that, but that doesn't make it so

[CryptoCactus]

I've been around ye olden internettes a long time, and here's the #1 problem open-source/freeware/fan-made projects run into: dev burnout.

So honestly, Warboy, SupSuper, all yall - fuck trying to please everyone. You do exactly what is easiest - and most fun - for you. If that means making nightlies less accessible, slowing down progress, backtracking, whatever - you do what you need to do. People will bitch and moan no matter what you do. That's just how humans work. So do what you think is best. If anyone disagrees too strongly with you, they can make their own fork or whatever else - otherwise they can dealwithit.jpg

Also, bear in mind, you guys could quit right NOW, and we already have a better Xcom than we've ever had before. You've done it - you've won. The project wasn't abandoned at v0.037 (or whatever) like so many other unpaid projects littering the tubes. We have a complete, playable, new-and-improved game, and we have y'all to thank for that.

If I were you, I would just seal off OXC at either 1.0 or whichever nightly you're most comfortable with, and rename all the new nightlies OpenTFTD - essentially making it its own project. That way you don't have to worry about TFTD support interfering with OXC gameplay, and anyone playing the latest builds would be doing so essentially as beta-testers for project#2, OTFTD. If that makes sense.

Either way, you do what you want/need to do, end-users can suck it up. 

[kikimoristan]

I've been around ye olden internettes a long time, and here's the #1 problem open-source/freeware/fan-made projects run into: dev burnout.

So honestly, Warboy, SupSuper, all yall - fuck trying to please everyone. You do exactly what is easiest - and most fun - for you. If that means making nightlies less accessible, slowing down progress, backtracking, whatever - you do what you need to do. People will bitch and moan no matter what you do. That's just how humans work. So do what you think is best. If anyone disagrees too strongly with you, they can make their own fork or whatever else - otherwise they can dealwithit.jpg

Also, bear in mind, you guys could quit right NOW, and we already have a better Xcom than we've ever had before. You've done it - you've won. The project wasn't abandoned at v0.037 (or whatever) like so many other unpaid projects littering the tubes. We have a complete, playable, new-and-improved game, and we have y'all to thank for that.

If I were you, I would just seal off OXC at either 1.0 or whichever nightly you're most comfortable with, and rename all the new nightlies OpenTFTD - essentially making it its own project. That way you don't have to worry about TFTD support interfering with OXC gameplay, and anyone playing the latest builds would be doing so essentially as beta-testers for project#2, OTFTD. If that makes sense.

Either way, you do what you want/need to do, end-users can suck it up. 

this.

I think developing should be fun. If you have to come up with stuff every so often based on a schedule then it's a job. You wanna release things when you feel things are readt to be released. Opensource should be more flexible and organic.

I personally update my Openxcom as often as I can. If a new feature is introduced I try to use it right away. To be honest I have yet to find  one game breaking bug in an Openxcom nightly.

screw 1.1 let's go straight for 2.0 

[xracer]

you guys need to relax and enjoy the game!!

there is a saying

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody" -Bill Cosby

Although this project is built around a community devs need to say this is the way and be done, sure personally i would like more milestones or "stable" releases, but that is irrelevant.

I just wish OXC keeps moving forward

[Mr. Quiet]

Nah, they need to continue taking requests. Our boys enjoy being with this awesome and small diehard UFO community.

[Aldorn]

Being away for a year, I'm surprised to learn that there has been a clash there !!

I'm not sure to well understand the reasons of this, but...

Please, please... Do not bother SupSuper !!!

You can challenge him, lots of community members are making lots of amazing evolutions, and I'm very grateful for that. But do never forget SupSuper (and Warboy) realized what nobody never did before and certainly will never perform in the future regarding UFO. Even if you sometimes disagree with his point of you, be eternally grateful to him (them) for the amazing job they realized.

I agree with CryptoCactus conclusion (except for suggestion, as I don't really have any opinion on that)

I've been around ye olden internettes a long time, and here's the #1 problem open-source/freeware/fan-made projects run into: dev burnout.

So honestly, Warboy, SupSuper, all yall - fuck trying to please everyone. You do exactly what is easiest - and most fun - for you. If that means making nightlies less accessible, slowing down progress, backtracking, whatever - you do what you need to do. People will bitch and moan no matter what you do. That's just how humans work. So do what you think is best. If anyone disagrees too strongly with you, they can make their own fork or whatever else - otherwise they can dealwithit.jpg

Also, bear in mind, you guys could quit right NOW, and we already have a better Xcom than we've ever had before. You've done it - you've won. The project wasn't abandoned at v0.037 (or whatever) like so many other unpaid projects littering the tubes. We have a complete, playable, new-and-improved game, and we have y'all to thank for that.

If I were you, I would just seal off OXC at either 1.0 or whichever nightly you're most comfortable with, and rename all the new nightlies OpenTFTD - essentially making it its own project. That way you don't have to worry about TFTD support interfering with OXC gameplay, and anyone playing the latest builds would be doing so essentially as beta-testers for project#2, OTFTD. If that makes sense.

Either way, you do what you want/need to do, end-users can suck it up. 

Edit: yes, I am a SupSuper inconditional !