Author Topic: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.28  (Read 115739 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #135 on: March 12, 2016, 05:32:39 pm »
3) miniaturized Lord Babbage Difference Engines ;)

That'd work too, albeit quite... slowly :)

Also while I agree with Hythlodaeus on principle, it is fully understandable that designs from the movies and games were used, as visual recognition is very important.

Offline clownagent

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #136 on: March 13, 2016, 09:03:15 am »
It is too bad you went with David Lynch's Dune design for stillsuit, because those things look horrible on their own without any garments on top. I always thought the fremen should look closer to bedouins and less like guys wearing spandex.



I like the design of the movie stillsuit somehow, but bedouin clothing would look also pretty good. Drawing bedouin style inventory and battlescape sprites from scratch is not so easy for me, but if similar armor appears in another mod I could adapt it for the Dune mod.

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #137 on: March 13, 2016, 07:37:27 pm »
This is why it's called 'science fiction' - you have a reality thousands of years in the future where your XX/XXI century notions of  physics/chemistry/engineering have been replaced with something else. You said those things cannot be build without electronics - if this is fiction, why not?

if i may weigh in with my perspective...

as far as i know, electronics were totally a technology they had, and used. but electronics are not the same as computers - computers need code to operate, and any knowledge of programming has long since died out.
as for a targeting computer, i could see them still existing, and still being in operation, but they'd be revered relics, mostly used on capital ships, not "ground" troops as it were. the ability to produce more may be long lost, but surely pre-existing units could be wired to work with "current" equipment.
they wouldn't be common knowledge, either. outlawing something simply makes people outlaws, it doesn't make it go away.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2016, 07:39:57 pm by Warboy1982 »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2016, 02:27:50 am »
if i may weigh in with my perspective...

as far as i know, electronics were totally a technology they had, and used. but electronics are not the same as computers - computers need code to operate, and any knowledge of programming has long since died out.
as for a targeting computer, i could see them still existing, and still being in operation, but they'd be revered relics, mostly used on capital ships, not "ground" troops as it were. the ability to produce more may be long lost, but surely pre-existing units could be wired to work with "current" equipment.
they wouldn't be common knowledge, either. outlawing something simply makes people outlaws, it doesn't make it go away.

I don't really recall any mention of electronics in the books (I don't consider the David Lynch movie as canon) but I can be wrong. What I do remember is that we'd consider a lot of the Dune tech as archaic, for instance, shigawire is used as a recording medium instead of CDs. To us it would be considered primitive but again, you need to consider that the Dune society has thousands of years and it is quite possible that technological development regressed after the Butlerian Jihad - if you don't have a need to use CDs or/and they're expensive or impossible to produce, then everyone started using magnetic tapes instead.   

This does not exclude the existence of electronics in Dune - some Ixian devices (from the planet Ix) were suspected by many of violating the law against 'machines that replicate the thought of man'. However, this prohibition was a huge deal and it was strictly enforced by the Empire, Guild, Bene Gesserit, mentats, etc., because their existence threatened to undermine the social order.

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2016, 03:04:02 am »
i understood the machines that replicate the thoughts of man to mean artificial intelligence, as opposed to automated fire control systems. take navigation systems for example... granted the technology to create them is obviously long lost, but we know such systems existed at _some_ point, because they didn't START on Arrakis, they had no access to the spice, and therefore no navigators. this leads me to believe that their must be SOME systems still out there and in operation, but the knowledge to repair, replace or replicate them is gone. again, such units would be incredibly scarce, but the capability to have even one ship in your armada capable of interstellar travel WITHOUT having to rely on the spice would be a HUGE advantage, and not something any of the great houses would part with easily - law or no.
the main problem i could see there, is that due to a lack of patches and updates over the last, say 10,000 years may mean that the star maps are woefully outdated and probably only contain information on a fraction of currently explored space.

as for a specific example in the books, Rhombur Vernius was basically a cyborg.

in any case, i think my main point was that i don't believe something as relatively innocuous as a targeting computer violates that law, as it still needs a human to pull the trigger.
once that element is removed, sure, let's talk execution methods.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 03:20:36 am by Warboy1982 »

Offline Xeno Wiper

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2016, 03:16:35 am »
I like the design of the movie stillsuit somehow, but bedouin clothing would look also pretty good. Drawing bedouin style inventory and battlescape sprites from scratch is not so easy for me, but if similar armor appears in another mod I could adapt it for the Dune mod.


Heh. I've seen the movie suits... People gonna fry on those... :P

And they look like some 80's trendy thing, not something people who live on a desert would use. They're kinda cool but not appropriate.

Beduin clothing can be called uninspired, but I think it adds a more mysterious look. Besides, could you not follow (or at least take some elements from) the tv series instead?

Maybe it's not that difficult to do it. You could adapt an ethereal vest.


I don't really recall any mention of electronics in the books (I don't consider the David Lynch movie as canon)

I've always thought the opposite, with all that bashing since it was released.... :P

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2016, 03:23:58 am »
again, such units would be incredibly scarce, but the capability to have even one ship in your armada capable of interstellar travel WITHOUT having to rely on the spice would be a HUGE advantage, and not something any of the great houses would part with easily - law or no.

That device would be almost impossible to use because of the Spacing Guild - once they knew of its existence they would demand to the Emperor and Landsraad its immediate destruction, and of the offending noble house, because it would break their monopoly on space travel. And since they control all space travel, a spaceship appearing out of nowhere without a Guild Highliner to transport it would be very suspicious. Not to mention that Guild Navigators can access prescience because of their spice use so they could 'see' or 'predict' someone using such a device. 

I'm not disagreeing that those devices do not exist, but there would be extreme penalties for their use, and they would have to be extremely concealed, but their rarity makes hiding the use of such a device very difficult, not to mention prescience and the Bene Gesserit's Truthsayers.

Quote
as for a specific example in the books, Rhombur Vernius was basically a cyborg.

Very true, although I don't like the books written after Frank Herbert's death because the authors added a lot of stuff that wasn't present, and most of them are simply not as good as the original ones.

in any case, i think my main point was that i don't believe something as relatively innocuous as a targeting computer violates that law, as it still needs a human to pull the trigger.
once that element is removed, sure, let's talk execution methods.

Depends on the level of fanaticism involved - would an abacus be considered a machine that replicates human thinking? Probably not to you and me but it can be argued that it is.

But above all, why would someone need a targeting computer on Dune? Nearly all conflict happens through kanli, or the art of vendetta, where knives, assassins and poisons are the weapon of choice. You don't see massive air or space battles - it's cheaper to settle differences through ritualized duels.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 03:33:36 am by Hobbes »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2016, 09:10:23 am »
But above all, why would someone need a targeting computer on Dune? Nearly all conflict happens through kanli, or the art of vendetta, where knives, assassins and poisons are the weapon of choice. You don't see massive air or space battles - it's cheaper to settle differences through ritualized duels.

Yeah that's what Prince Leto thought, but Harconnen proved him wrong, by assaulting his palace with a large army and artillery. And Paul repaid them (and everyone else) in kind, starting with nukes then proceeding to wipe out billions of people (I doubt his men did that with knives alone) :) Also when Paul was escaping on a ornithopter with his mother, afair he wasn't feeling safe - without targeting aids in existence, an ornithopter would be basically untouchable.
As far as warfare goes, the biggest ban enforcer is effectively the Guild, seeing how everyone is dependant on their ships for troop transport. A combat that threatens a Guild's ship is perhaps even greater taboo than the use of nuclear weapons.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 09:12:40 am by Dioxine »

Offline kikimoristan

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2016, 10:26:20 pm »
Dune is set about 20,000+ years into the future from present time.

To give you an idea the time when Paul Atreides is born in 10,175 AG. The roman empire is founded in ~16400 BG (27 BC) and falls ~16000 BG (476 AD). Sine you're counting backwards to 0 AG then 2016 would be 16000 BG (476 AD) - (2016 AD - 476 AD)  = 14460 BG. Which means Paul Atreides is born in year 24,635 AD (give or take ~100 years)

Now what you guys are talking about is the Butlerian Jihad that lasted from 200 BG to 108 BG in which thinking machines (AI) revolted  against their creators (humans) leading to the banning of thinking machines (AI) but not computers or electronics. A book called the Orange Catholic Bible or OCB is written (an extended version of the Catholic Bible) in which thinking machines are prohibited and Mentats start being trained as replacement for computers.

"Thou shalt not make computers in the likeness of the human mind"  OCB

Essentially this means all advancements in AI are halted for the next tens of thousands of years.

But there are some people for example house of IX that continued developing cybertechnology to such an extend that they are able to replace any body part with a cybernetic counterpart. They probably have the ability to create a fully AI lifeform. They probably don't do it or only do it privately in fear of the Emperor.

BG & AG
The greatest milestone in  this future timeline is the establishment of the Space Guild , CHOAM and the Emperor of the Universe throne (Lion Throne). These 3 bodies will define the next thousands of years so much so that this moment is referred to 0 AG (after guild) and all events previous to this are considered BG (before guild).

See timeline here https://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_(Dune_Encyclopedia)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2016, 10:31:17 pm by tollworkout »

Offline kikimoristan

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2016, 10:56:36 pm »
Sorry I forgot to say this.

While the ban is on thinking machines ONLY, as time passes all humans will develop an irrational fear towards all machines. This love hate relationship with machines is everywhere in the 3 main books.

The house of IX which develop machines and have very advanced technology are sometimes seen as sorcerers or witches something to be both feared and respected. They are the only one to develop any type of machines  meaning they have the sole machine monopoly in the universe. This is the only thing that keeps them alive. All type of machines from Orithopter, harvesters, Oil Lens bionoculars and anything like that is all Ixian.

The opposite of IX is house of Tleilaxlu which use genetic engineering to develop very advanced bio machines (mentats, fighters, etc). They seem to be very popular and respected in the empire and often antagonous of Ixians.

In the book Harkonen employ Tleilaxlu often while Atreites seem to favour Ix. Although IX does not favour any specific house and will produce any type of machine for any house.

After Paul Atreides's child Leto II becomes the emperor of the universe , the fear of machines becomes lessened and AI is slowly allowed in subservient limited roles. This is the end of the Space Guild and the universe of Dune as we know it.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #145 on: March 16, 2016, 06:55:11 pm »
A very good summary. From my side, I'll add a couple of pointers and addendums to this, on the technological side of things (as I an Orthodox Materialist :). As I refuse to treat Dune as a fantasy novel.

AI/Circuitry/Computers: We're only about 100 years into the Age of Electronics. From the engineering standpoint, we have, in all likeness, NOT a clue about how their circuitry looks or works. Therefore we must take literally "No Thinking Machines in the likeness of Man", and NOT think in the terms of what we consider electronics/computers today (transistors, integrated circuits, digitalism), but in the terms of what was the meaning of these words in the culture of Dune, some 20k years in the future.

Genetic Memory: Highly advanced biotechnology with a sprinkle of social conditioning. At some point in that abyss of time, some humans (nobility perhaps?) were enhanced in a way that created the penomenon. Tlailax (a Male order, am I wrong? No female Mentats!) being a likely culprit, on a rare occassion they cooperated with Bene Gesserit. One specialize in Mind, the others in Body.

The Power of Voice: Widespread mental conditioning. The Gesserit were in charge of the highest culture for Millenia. It is not unlikely they have slowly brainwashed the masses to be susceptible to the power of hypnosis. This is proven possible by science. All more likely since there were persons (Vlad Harkonnen) and even whole nations (Fremen; an isolated group) which were to various extent resistant.

Holzman Shield Generators: I don't want to bore you, so in short, what can sustain such considerable power for basically infinity and violently explode when interacted with in a certain way (a focused, high powered ray of electromagnetic radiation), with a force of a thermonuclear bomb? Easy. Thermonuclear reactor. Again, one current school of possible fusion reactor design is so-called 'Polywell' ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell ). It could be miniaturized. No battery could hold out for infinity, while a fusion reactor, which can procure hydrogen from its sorroundings, could. However, such a reactor doesn't really need a digital computer, it can have an immensely sophisticated analogue circuitry instead. But to us, it'd look so much more primitive and yet much more intricate than our best computers.

Holzman Platform, Glow-globe: same power source, but antigravity? Who knows. Gravitational radiation has been discovered, albeit just only very recently. It is big news in physics. If there is radiation, there can be a way to inreact with it. Not disproven!

Prophetic Powers: Science as of today knows very little about the true capabilities of human mind. Or the ways to enhance it to superhuman levels. And we might never know, as only a more complex system can fully model a simpler system, but we don't have any more complex system than our brain, so we don't have anything to fully model it on! In all probability, the enhancement of the human brain in the future will be trial-and-error process. The point is, there is no way of telling what an enhanced human brain would be capable of.

And yeah, tiny clockworks can work too as circuitry, but I believe, without proof, that electricity and magnetism will prevail in the end :)

No myth has been busted in this slightly humorous yet serious summary. Dune is not a Myth! It's Science Fiction!
(and I won't start a Jihad over this either, cross my heart ;) )
« Last Edit: March 16, 2016, 06:56:44 pm by Dioxine »

Offline kikimoristan

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2016, 06:42:11 am »
Dioxine . Very thoughtful and observant remarks. Here is a few more ideas to help chisel out what you said about mentants and tleilaxu

Now as you have said most Mentats are male however what is less known is that Bene Gesserit are in fact  female Mentat nuns. The female mentant nun order went much farther than males and became so powerful that they created their own house and have a lot of power and influence over the Universe and the Empire.  So as you see there are female Mentants.  Generally Mentants (males) are used anywhere fast thinking is required while female Mentants or should I say Benne Gesserit only show up in matters of utmost importance. Benne Gesserit have become so powerful because their faith is based on eugenics. Their power is thousand of years of breeding the right people with the right skills and a lot of discipline and training.

Their only weakness is that the Empire is passed down via males and since they are all females they can never ever hope to be emperors. This is where Paul Atreides came in. He was originally thought to be a step in creation of the Kwisaz Hederach or the male Benne Gesserit who they will use to claim the throne. He was not meant to be the male benne gesserit but rather was supposed to one of his descendents. But he was born to soon and nobody paid attention to him until it was too late. They lost control of him and lost power to the Empire.

Tleilaxu (also called Bene Tleilax)  have a much more direct approach. They simply genetically alter or create anything  they need.Although they are well respected by rules of various houses   for their efficiency in dealing with problems, they are considered "loathsome" by all others.   They are very secretive, isolationist, totalitarian and theocratic (Heretics of Dune) society. It appears their genetic engineering practices are dominated by religious ideology and dogma.

Both of these houses derive from a post AI ban future Catholic faith. Both of these houses or groups are based on religious dogma and ideology but interpreted differently.
 
Edit: The House of IX on the other hand is pretty much the most sensible continuation of the present day world. IX is capitalist , scientific, pragmatic, technologic. They live underground where they have vast laboratories in multiple levels where they spend all their time producing technological marvels.  Their ideology is pretty much a very advanced western capitalist democratic society.  IX literarily means 10 from the roman numeral 10. The roman empire connection with the present day society is clear sign that this house is western world in year 25,000.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 06:54:14 am by tollworkout »

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2016, 07:20:33 am »
erm... one small thing... IX is 9, not 10

Offline Yankes

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2016, 07:28:16 pm »
erm... one small thing... IX is 9, not 10
off by one, standard in programming bugs :D

Offline Duke_Falcon

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #149 on: March 18, 2016, 08:32:07 pm »
IX is the designation of the planet or system (I think it means the planet's number) what simply meant 9.th. But IX become the official name of the planet and thus they become ixian. The other technological world is Richese and it were mentioned in the original Dune novel. Both lived in a constant experimenting of new technology but IX were not afraid of create computers even though it were never mentioned those computers use AI or not. Afterall a computer could do work without AI and thus it literally not violate the butlerian anti-AI dogma.

In the Imperium there are radars, computers and high-tech things apart from starships and highliners but totally devoit of any kind of AI. Using printed circuits, burned eproms enable computers to work and do not even count as AI in any means. Pre-recorded orders are not banned to use. And manufacture some items also surely needs advanced mechanics, some degree of robotics as humans make way to much mistakes. Shields are a good example. And these are only a few example. Dune do have technology but those techs what require AI are changed with specially trained humans (Mentats, Bene Gesserits, Face-dancers, Suk-doctors and so on).

By the way is there a way or fix to load saved games? This mod is cool but without loading it is impossible to pass through the first 3-4 months.