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Author Topic: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.28  (Read 122987 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #120 on: March 08, 2016, 11:47:53 pm »
A tergetting computer is hardly a 'thinking' machine... But sure, it cannot communicate so no text screen or keyboard. I guess a closet with a radar screen would be fine. Or any other sort of analogue-based electronics.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #121 on: March 09, 2016, 12:59:35 am »
I don't know the lore, but what about a communication room, if the detection is performed by spotters.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #122 on: March 09, 2016, 01:14:33 am »
A tergetting computer is hardly a 'thinking' machine... But sure, it cannot communicate so no text screen or keyboard. I guess a closet with a radar screen would be fine. Or any other sort of analogue-based electronics.

All computers are considered anathema in Dune due to the Butlerian Jihad. That's why spaceships use Guild Navigators to travel amongst the stars, and the Mentat (humans trained to perform the calculations made by a computer) school appeared.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #123 on: March 09, 2016, 02:49:14 am »
True. Computer in our sense of the word is absolutely forbidden. But you can't have things like ornitopters or Holzmann's shields (in all likeness based on fusion power), without some sort of electronics. Same with spaceships (navigators are beside the point IMO - afaik no computer would be able to do their job anyway, FTL was crappy in the times of Omnius). Is radio forbidden? Or is it based on living tissue?

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #124 on: March 09, 2016, 03:50:30 pm »
But you can't have things like ornitopters or Holzmann's shields (in all likeness based on fusion power), without some sort of electronics.

This is why it's called 'science fiction' - you have a reality thousands of years in the future where your XX/XXI century notions of  physics/chemistry/engineering have been replaced with something else. You said those things cannot be build without electronics - if this is fiction, why not?

You already have 'impossible things' happening on Dune according to our science:
* Prescience allows you to see the future, which implies a way to transmit information from the future to the past, which is impossible today
* The inner memories of the Bene Gesserit sisters and the Bene Tleilaxu's gholas imply that our genes can transmit information like voices, memories or even the whole personality of a human being.
* Stillsuits - I read somewhere that wearing one of those in our deserts would be more likely to cook you inside the suit rather than protect you since there seems to be no way to remove the excess heat produced by the human body.

So, a spaceship without electronics in Dune? Sure, no problem :)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 04:02:44 pm by Hobbes »

Offline DoxaLogos (JG)

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2016, 07:05:47 pm »
For sake of argument since I'm an EE, electronics do not equal computers, but computers require electronics to function.  Radios don't require a computer to operate, and are very simple circuits to build.  They just need a few operational amplifiers, capacitors, resistors, inductors, some switches (to tune the modulation/demodulation), oscillating crystal and (and power).  They're really is no general purpose programming (or memory) going on in a radio or other very fixed purpose electronic devices. Computers are more "higher" form of electronics if you want to look at it that way, because they can be programmed to almost "think" and "reason".

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #126 on: March 09, 2016, 07:50:25 pm »
For sake of argument since I'm an EE, electronics do not equal computers, but computers require electronics to function.  Radios don't require a computer to operate, and are very simple circuits to build.  They just need a few operational amplifiers, capacitors, resistors, inductors, some switches (to tune the modulation/demodulation), oscillating crystal and (and power).  They're really is no general purpose programming (or memory) going on in a radio or other very fixed purpose electronic devices. Computers are more "higher" form of electronics if you want to look at it that way, because they can be programmed to almost "think" and "reason".

OK, but can you build a sensible radar without a computer? Because this is the question that seems more interesting to me. :)

Offline psyHoTik

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #127 on: March 09, 2016, 08:05:19 pm »
All computers are considered anathema in Dune due to the Butlerian Jihad. That's why spaceships use Guild Navigators to travel amongst the stars, and the Mentat (humans trained to perform the calculations made by a computer) school appeared.
That's the official line, however there are many examples of hi-tech devices, which must require some sort of circuity. A remote-controlled assassin weapon used against Paul or holographic display in War Room at Palace on Dune are examples. And Mentats are employed not only because computers are banned but because they are far superior to anything A.I. has to offer (which actually may not be so fictional: see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moravec's_paradox ). Also, bear in mind that the first Dune novel was written in 1965 when computers were still a novelty to public and perceived as "electron brains" or "thinking machines" that will one day turn against their creators. No one thought that 50 years later such electronic brain will be installed in every microwave oven. I think we can assume that the ban covers only A.I. or robots but not all electronics.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 08:14:29 pm by psyHoTik »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2016, 08:07:40 pm »
None of the things you've described, Hobbes, is impossible. We don't know how to do it... yet, but afaik none of this has been proved to be impossible.
But my question was about radio and radar. You obviously need some form of information processing, and digital is forbidden (which isn't stupid, digital machines, being language constructs, are prone to language errors). You have two options left: 1) analogue electronics (which, in the future, can be way more complex than current computers, and still don't register as 'artificial thinking machine' because it simply converts one magnetic field into another) or 2) living tissue. Might be a lobotomized servitor (Tlailaxians seem to have the capacity to make one), might be a Bene Gesserit if someone really wants a poisonous snake in his castle. Which is it? :) And I'm asking out of curiosity, too, because your knowledge of Dune universe is broader than mine.

Offline psyHoTik

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #129 on: March 09, 2016, 08:22:25 pm »
You have two options left: 1) analogue electronics (...) or 2) living tissue.
3) miniaturized Lord Babbage Difference Engines ;)

Offline DoxaLogos (JG)

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #130 on: March 09, 2016, 08:46:51 pm »
OK, but can you build a sensible radar without a computer? Because this is the question that seems more interesting to me. :)

Radars today? Probably not given the amount of math involved to isolate the signals.  A lot of digital signal processing going on in radar these days, but not in the first radars in  WWII.

But things like atomics and lasers, don't have to have computers.  My argument was trying to differentiate between computers vs electronics, because a lot of electronics don't always need a computer.

Offline Hobbes

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #131 on: March 09, 2016, 08:50:38 pm »
You have two options left: 1) analogue electronics (which, in the future, can be way more complex than current computers, and still don't register as 'artificial thinking machine' because it simply converts one magnetic field into another) or 2) living tissue. Might be a lobotomized servitor (Tlailaxians seem to have the capacity to make one), might be a Bene Gesserit if someone really wants a poisonous snake in his castle. Which is it? :) And I'm asking out of curiosity, too, because your knowledge of Dune universe is broader than mine.

I do not think that there is a through explanation of how those things work in Dune on the books written by Frank Herbert (I'm not including the ones written after his death). One recurring idea about Dune is how humans can master themselves and use spice to be independent from technology, while at the same time they become enslaved by the dependency of spice. Research and development of new technologies are also discouraged since they can threaten the status quo of a feudal society which relies on social stratification.

Offline Duke_Falcon

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #132 on: March 10, 2016, 08:34:29 pm »
A good mod. My only problem that I can not save games. Is this mod needs OXCE?

Offline clownagent

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #133 on: March 10, 2016, 09:07:30 pm »
A good mod. My only problem that I can not save games. Is this mod needs OXCE?

No, the mod should work with the normal nightlies.
 
The problem with saving happend to me also a few days ago. I can save. The save file appears in the corresponding folder.  However, the file does not appear in the load screen.
I do not know the reason for this. Maybe something in the nightlies was changed regarding the file structure for larger mods?

Offline Hythlodaeus

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] [GLOBE] DUNE - Desert world 0.15
« Reply #134 on: March 12, 2016, 09:42:36 am »
It is too bad you went with David Lynch's Dune design for stillsuit, because those things look horrible on their own without any garments on top. I always thought the fremen should look closer to bedouins and less like guys wearing spandex.