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Author Topic: The new system can be destructive for the translation!  (Read 16891 times)

Offline grzegorj

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The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« on: September 01, 2014, 03:59:44 pm »
The new system causes that each particular string can be changed with voting. This is the worst solution of all possible. It is so because a given term can occur in a number of strings at the same time. Voting can cause a change in one string while another version stays in all other strings.

To clear the thing, I will give an example from the Polish translation:

For STR_MUTON_CORPSE, "Zwłoki mutona" has won the voting. But:

STR_SECTOID_CORPSE is "Ciało Sektoida",
STR_SNAKEMAN_CORPSE is "Ciało Wężownika",
STR_ETHEREAL_CORPSE is "Ciało Etereala", etc.

Note CORPSE as "zwłoki" in the first example while CORPSE as "ciało" in the others. Note also the spelling "mutona" (lower case) and "Sektoida" etc. (upper case).

It can be even worse! COMMANDER means "komandor" in Polish but some people may translate it as "przywódca". But the normal translation of "przywódca" is "leader"! So, the present system of democracy towards each single string which is trating apart, can cause a total mess: in some strings "przywódca" may be COMMANDER while in others "przywódca" may be LEADER.

So, this democratic system of clicks may be destructive! And the final translation may lead to serious missunderstandings.

Please consider my argumentation, and add a rule that a given term MUST be translated in the same way in all strings where it is present. This cannot be done automatically, however.

For example, COMMANDER should be either "komandor" or "przywódca" everywhere, in all strings in which it occurs. But NAME should be sometimes translated as "imię" and sometimes as "nazwa" because of features of the language.

In other words, only clicks on such or another version of a given string is the worst solution. There should be some coordination between all changes.

As for now, the Polish translation has been destructed by people who wanted to force their own translations only in some strings. I really expect that someone WILL revert the translation to the prevoious state, before the introduction of the new system, or the game will be less and less comprehensible. If this mess will continue, the only solution will be to play in English.

As for now, to play OpenXCom in Polish, in a comfortable way, you must first edit the localization file for yourself, and remove all the mess caused by the new system of clicks. Previously there was not such a need.

I do not think it is one the creators of the new system expected. Perhaps it is time for go back to the previous system, or to serious changes in the click system.



Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2014, 05:44:28 pm »
+1.

GetLocalization is a nice and useful system, but the democratic mechanic only produces monstrous forms of language. I've spent months trying to fix the Polish version, but there hasn't been much progress, simply because nobody else cares (except for Piter :) ). It just doesn't work, and the translation is a nightmare.

Is there a possibility of using some other system? Like, something that actually works? For example, Grzegorj is a teacher, Dioxine is a professional literature translator, yet their potential is completely wasted, because 80% of the text looks like it was written by a middle schooler with memory deficiency. This is not a good system.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2014, 06:00:18 pm »
+1
The "Zwłoki / Ciało" case is a perfect example of a lose-lose situation.
Also, there's the difficulty that strings have to fit in the low-res UI. It's very depressing to spend a pair of days double-checking 80% of the screens, and then a week later the language is unusable because a few people changed things right and left without bothering to test it.

Offline grzegorj

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2014, 04:26:06 am »
I could work on far better translation but I do not want others just destroy my work without any argumentation. Instead of voting for particular strings, I suggest discussion and/or  voting for Polish counterparts of specific terms in all the translation, or for particular problems and general rules like spelling names of alien races from an upper or a lower letter (btw. rules of Polish orthography should always be obeyed, they are not a possible subject of voting!) or Polonization by force of the terms best known to all UFO players, like Commander / przywódca (instead of komandor) or Chryssalid / krysalid (instead of just chrysalid). Note that such newly introduced terms are unfriendly and confusing to many players! Please respect it!

Anyway, if the present system of democratic clicks is cancelled, I will help with pleasure. If it is not, I will not help because it would be a work without any sense.

And once again, I strongly suggest to start from completely removing of all changes that have been made with clicks, and return this way to the previous version as the base for feature work on translation (except new strings) - but the "democratic" changes are nothing but a destruction! And all further changes and new proposals should be discussed first than introduced, of course not in single strings but in the whole localization file.

Offline grzegorj

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2014, 03:13:33 pm »
Not to be groundless, here are several, chosen changes that must be made in all the document, without any stupid voicing on each single strings.

1. The human organization fighting against aliens is called XCom, not X-COM and not X-Com! See the name of the game: OpenXCom. The "-" mark must be eliminated at the same time in all 34 occurences (note how awful it looks with case endings, like "X-Com-u"!). In capitalized strings: XCOM. With case endings: XCom-u, in capitalized strings: XCOM-U (the ending should be capitalized as well in such instances).  Btw., one and a half years ago it was correct. But then somebody changed it for unknown reason... Why?

2. Names of alien races (or more pecisely speaking: species, like "sektoid", "lewiton" etc.) and ranks ("terrorysta", "żołnierz", "inżynier" etc.) should always be spelt from a lower letter (they are not proper names), in all (numerous!) occurences. This is demanded by the Polish spelling rules and cannot be voted, now and ever.

3. Because we speak "mutony", "lewitony", then also "sektoidy" and not "sektoidzi". They are not humans, and only human names should have the masculine personal case ending in nominative plural.

4. There is also no reason for spelling "Ciężkie Działo Samobieżne". Instead, "ciężkie działo samobieżne" should be applied everywhere. It is not a proper name. Also the shortening should be spelt "cds", not "CDS" (consult https://so.pwn.pl/zasady.php?id=629578 for examples).

5. Let Chryssalid be "chrysalid" everywhere (now it is sometimes Chrysalid, and sometimes Krysalid! - it is completely inacceptable). Any ideas on changing this term may be a subject of further discussion. If another option wins, the name must be changed in all places at the same time, never string by string.

6. Commander cannot be "Przywódca" because "przywódca" is leader in Polish, not commander! Such a change is confusing and thus inacceptable. The most suitable translation is "komandor" and it should be restored in all occurences. A further discussion may change it (personally I am against it) but if yes, then in all occurences in the same time. However, the translation cannot be "przywódca" for the reason I have just mentioned.

7. The official shortening of "sekunda" is "s" (without a dot) and not "sek." - it must be changed due to rules of the {Polish spelling and cannot be further voted.

8. Let "corpse" be "zwłoki" (except cyberdiscs and sectopods) and not "ciało" (cf. autopsy = "sekcja zwłok") - but if yes, then in all occurences. It must be established by a consensus of some kind, and changed in all occurences at the same time, never string by string.

9. In the cases of cyberdiscs and sectopods, let "corpse" be "wrak" but let "autopsy" be "analiza części", anyway the same in both races! Besides, "sekcja wraku" sounds both ridiculous and absurd!

10. The words "twój", "tobie" etc. should not be capitalized, it is not a letter but a computer game! Consult the rules of Polish spelling please.

11. The translation of STR_ALIEN_HARVEST as "Obce żniwa" is really ridiculous! Just think what it should mean in Polish... Of course this should be "żniwa obcych"! The same on STR_ALIEN_TERROR: "Obcy terror" and STR_ALIEN_RETALIATION: "Obcy odwet" ("obcy" = "sąsiedzki"?). I am under impression that the translator of the God's grace did use Google, hence this result. But why did he destroy the correct translation? Note that STR_ALIEN_RESEARCH is still "Badania obcych" (and hopefully not "obce badania"  :) ).

If you do not agree, please show your arguments instead of stupid clicking!


A ready-to-test, corrected translation (with the above listed changes) is in the attachment, together with the current official (and damaged) version and two other versions from the past, for comparing.


I wil not continue clicking. If you like these changes and you can do it, please cancel the present string-by-string-voting system, block it forever, and add the changes I have just listed to the game. They are necessary because of spelling rules and logic. Instead, voting on proposals of changes of particular tems, not strings, can be establlished but with possible changes only in all strings at the same time, never string by string.


If it is done, we may start to work on the translation to make it better than it is now. Instead of voting for such or another string, let's vote for such or another solution but in all the localization file.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2014, 06:45:58 pm »
Generally agreed on most accounts, with the exceptions of...

0. Preaching. Don't throw rocks at people as you're making mistakes too, as it shows even in that post... Plus translation is an art not science. Some artistic license is not only allowed, it's a must or the translation will be ugly.

3. Humans... or sentient beings in general? It's author's decision, and cannot be simply squashed on the grounds of language rules (which do not account for non-human sentient beings.)

5. Polonizing the names, afaik, is not forbidden, even if rarely used in our day and age. "Krysalid" is a phonetical polonization, you might say it's ugly, but certainly not inacceptable.

6. "Komandor" is NOT "commander" but "commodore", so "komandor" is a simple (rookie's :) )mistake. The most literal translation of "Commander" would be "dowódca". However, there is an established artistic precedence ("zabierzcie mnie do swojego przywódcy!"). Granted it should go to the Leader but then, who the hell is the commander? Logic-wise, not rules-wise.

11. Your exclamation marks wouln't change the fact that: "żniwa obcych" might be more literal but they can have two meanings in Polish: either it is aliens who are harvested, or it's the aliens who perform the act of harvesting, impossible to tell. Even more so with "badania obcych". You say the author used google, I say you never played the game. The other translation at least not misleading. Might be imperfect but at least it carries the message, while yours just leads astray.

Also I agree that the current system is pretty much useless, that's why I'm not participating. But it's either that or authored translation with a name on it (and money paid for doing a job, and editor hired to edit it). No a gray emminence saying "my translation is a word of God" and staying hidden.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 06:51:38 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Yankes

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2014, 09:10:12 pm »
grzegorj, I think you should stick to polish tread with this examples of bad translation. This thread should only be for discussion of overall problem, not problems in our language translation.

I'm interested if other languages have similar problems, where one translation is pulled in opposite direction. I agree that best solution would be voting for whole translation not per string.

BTW in long run people dictate orography not other way around. Today "sacred" rules in 100 years will be invalid.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 12:06:39 am »
Just wanted to chime in as a completely non-Polish speaker:   (And Off-Topic, sorry ::))

I am completely impressed with the awesome Polish Modding/Dev community that is part of this project!! your skill, vision, and imagination are invaluable.  And I am stunned that so much of this work is communicated so excellently in a language (English) which is not your native tongue!  You guys Rock! Thanks!  :D

Offline grzegorj

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 09:01:03 pm »
@Dioxine: Unfortunately, you are wrong. "Commodore" = Polish "komodor". And "Commander" = "komandor" in the sense of a military rank. It is not a rookie translation, it is what you can find in dictionaries. So please stop talking about rookies, OK? I will tell you more: stop lying! Look into dictionaries first. Anyway, "przywódca" = leader, never commander (checked in 5 dictionaries). If you know (printed) dictionaries in which komandor is not commander (in neither sense), and commander is przywódca, give me their bibliographic data.

I know that errare humanum est - everyone makes errors. But it is very bad if someone changes a correct translation with a wrong one. That is why a discussion and arguments are needed. Instead of stupid clicking. And instead of making changes (like przywódca on the place of komandor) without any discussion.

So, the current translation is wrong and confusing, and thus must be replaced by the previous one. Not because I am a god but because your proposal is inacceptable.

As I said, cancel all the innovations, and next let's discuss new proposals together with their argumentation. Otherwise I will not be constructive any longer. Then we may vote indeed - but not on particular strings! It is a stupid idea.

I do not like krysalid, and prefer chrysalid (similarly: I prefer "laser" to "lejzer" in Polish). You may have other preferences. And finally I may agree with krysalid, perhaps (but what should we change it for?) - but in all strings at once! _This_ is the real problem. It cannot be so that there is "chrysalid"m in some strings and "krysalid" in others, at the same time!

"Żniwa obcych" is the only acceptable translation of "alien harvest". And it is ambiguous in the same degree as its English counterpart. The same problem is also in many other languages, including Latin (genetivus objectivus : genetivus subjectivus). But it is the only possibility. "Obce żniwa" is ridiculous for real and may mean "unfamiliar", "strange" or "outlandish" (harvest). I will never accept it as a valid translation, it is not in my native language. Please stop clutter the translation with such personal inventions!

Btw,...

12. STR_LASER_WEAPONS: "Bronie laserowe" is another bug in translation! "Broń" = weapon is not used in plural in Polish at all (like bydło = cattle, or życie = life/lives, unlike in English in this instance).

The only acceptable translation is "broń laserowa".

I wrote on it one and a half year ago - but somebody neglected it completely (because he thinks he knows everything but it appears that he himself cannot speak correct Polish). If one of my pupils wrote "bronie", he would get the lowest mark.

Do the aim of the localization of this game is to promote incorrect language forms? If yes, I cannot see a place for me here. If not, we cannot vote on forms that are unequivocally condemned in authoritative sources! Hence my voting... against voting, at least in some instances.


@Yankes: I realize I am talking about the Polish translation but the problems came into being only after introdicing the unfamous system of voting. It is clear that details of the Polish translation can only be discussed among Polish translators - but I am presenting the general problem in this thread. No capable translators will participate the project as long as there is a possibility that in a couple of days someone irresponsible will destroy their work with clicking and voting.

Hence my appeal: close the voting system as it is destructive! It harms to the result of work of other people who know what are doing. And first of all - it does not guarantee than a new translation of a given term will appear in all string in which the term is present.

I'm also interested if other languages have similar problems. It is hard to guess it is only a problem for Polish translators.

A word on language and spelling correctness: Perhaps the English people do not feel it like the Poles. But among us, if a person makes language and spelling errors, it proves in my country he is undereducated. As a professional teacher and a language lover I know it perfectly. In English, indeed "sacred" rules are (should be?) invalid, hence "nite" instead of "night". Perhaps it looks nice. For us Poles similar changes are not fine at all. We love out spelling rules (much simpler that the English ones but still not THAT simple), and we really try to obey them, except undereducated teenagers. People who do not think so are alienated in the Polish society, ostracized and riduculed by others. Spelling and language correctness are just important for us. You make errors - nobody treats you seriously. And because of this we have fat dictionaries of correct Polish. And I have a website with pages on language correctness (https://grzegorj.w.interia.pl/popraw/slow.html in the case you are interested in it - unfortunately it is only in Polish). So, for us (and especially for me as I am a teacher) it is really IMPORTANT if it is "broń laserowa" or "bronie laserowe" in the Polish translation.

@ivandogovich, thanks for your nice words! Our mother tongue, Polish, is so horrendously complex (but so beautiful, rich and flexible at the same time) that mastering another language, especially with so simple grammar like English, is, as a rule, not very hard for us. However, do not exaggerate, we make errors... and also I make errors, sorry for this. Unfortunately, I cannot think in English all the time... But I hope you non-Poles will understand us...

Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2014, 02:36:56 pm »
I understood your problem, Mr Grzeogrz. I will try to follow your propositions, vote your strings and watch out while translating to Polish. Please also report my bad propositions of translation and maybe GetLocalization admins or SupSuper will delete this. I'm translating, because I like it, but I'm not a polonist like you, but it's nice to have a professional teacher like you :)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2014, 05:50:25 pm »
Regarding your points, grzegorj:

As much as I hate people who say "unfortunately" while they mean the opposite... you were quite right about the Commodore; seems that my marinistic knowledge is too much into Royal Navy and not enough into the current ranks, and old habits die hard - I was so sure of it all my life that I haven't bothered to check. However, the point still stands: Commander is "komandor" only in the sense of an official naval rank, generally it's just "dowódca", as command means "dowództwo/stanowisko dowódcze/dowodzone wojsko/komenda" (dawniej wręcz "komenda" znaczyło "dowodzone wojsko", hence "Commander" is sometimes translated as "komendant"). "Przywódca" <> "dowódca" mean basically the same (except "dowódca" is almost always military, while "przywódca" is broader), so while it might be not acceptable within a dictionary to call Leader a "dowódca" it is certainly within range of translator's free hand. The main problem is... calling an alien Commander by a formal naval rank seems really wrong to me. And this last sentence is my only reservation here. If we rightly call Leader a "przywódca" we're left with that unfortunate "komandor" for the Commander. My proposal is this: call Leader "oficer", Commander "przywódca", saving the greater meaning over a trivial faithfulness. Like they say, a translation is like a woman, either beautiful or faithful but not both at once.

You haven't adressed your "mutony" thing, and quite sensibly so, because I'd appeal to the precedence of Skibniewska's JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings translation and "orkowie" for orcs or "krasnoludowie" for dwarves, both of which certainly aren't humans. So here you're obviously in the wrong, but I won't sink so low as to call you a liar, I'm not a teacher just a professional translator and I understand that there is no infallible person in this business - that's why editors are well-paid. Do not take this snide remark personally, as a writer I hate and despise Polish teachers (as a group) with a passion for their rigidity and narrow horizons, but that doesn't mean I hate every one of them :)

Going further - what do you mean, my proposal? I wash my hands off this mess, I clicked a couple of stuff because a friend basically forced me to, and certainly I don't have any proposals. I'm here just to discuss the vagaries of translating business and drag you down from your pedestal if need be.

As for people changing good translations into wrong ones - well, shit happens, and it's often infuriating, that's why I don't like the current system. At all. With my editor, I can discuss things, here, it's impossible.

About the "krysalid" - I don't particularly like it either, I just wanted to prove it's not "absolutely inacceptable". While your point about being careful with this is valid, "lejzer" is a wrong example... firstly it comes from an acronym LASER, secondly, we pronounce it as "laser" while "chrysalid" we pronounce something like inbetween krysalid/chrysalid (kr/chr sounds similar in Polish, vide Chrystus vs. Krystus seen in regional speech). EDIT: After some checkups, chrysalis is sometimes translated (in biology) as "chryzalida", hence we probably should go with that and name the critter "chryzalid" or go full Polish nuts (I wouldn't) and name it "przepoczwarzacz" or, alas, "impregnator" :).

"Żniwa obcych..." Let's take a less humorous example. "Badania obcych". Say, Polish scientists research something. We say "polskie badania", not "badania Polaków" because that'd basically mean "Poles are being examined"; unless of course there is a very strong context saying otherwise. The root of the problem here is the usual translator's conundrum: both options are bad, because "obcy", alien, can mean a whole lot of things, and we'd want something that's a name of a nation/faction/organization to use the more proper wording. In English this is less of a problem because the "Aliens" are big letter Aliens, which suggests nation/organization.
To stay on the safe side, I'd propose "Działalność Obcych: żniwa" (badania, etc. "Obcy" big-lettered to suggest a nation, particular species of them of course small-lettered) but it causes another problem to crop up (redundancy on the HWD screen). But we can always ask Sup for more strings :)

I absolutely agree with you on one thing, though: the voting system produces monsters like "bronie" you've mentioned (reading the current Pl version of OXCom a couple of months ago, I was laughing and crying in equal measure, and finally I was only pissed) and it cannot be trusted to produce anything good. Given the time I could read your translation and voice my reservations, and so should other vocal Poles around here, so perhaps some kind of compromise between beauty and faithfulness can be struck, and all the errors weeded out. But then again, even if a compromise is struck, there could be a bam, wham, liberum veto from some newcomers and all the work is for naught. Irl, credentials (like teacher vs. his class) rightfully trump democracy, but on the internet... That's why I'm extremely reluctant to take any part in this.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 06:22:08 pm by Dioxine »

Offline grzegorj

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2014, 09:32:34 pm »
Dioxine, I hope we will never hate each other, and we will go to a compromise finally. You are right about various meanings / possible translations of "commander", and I think the problem is that I see nothing but a military rank here while you do not seem to. Note that  "dowódca" refers to the head of any squad ("dowódca oddziału", "dowódca eskadry", "dowódca plutonu", "dowódca armii"); in this sense, in our beloved game, "dowódca" may be navigator (?), leader, or commander, depending on type of mission. So commander = dowódca would be really an unlucky translation.

Also "przywódca" is wrong, not only because "przywódca" is a synonym to "lider" in Polish. "Przywódca" always refers to the main chief ("przywódca partii", "przywódca powstania" etc.). And "przywódca" may be only one while there are many commanders in the game.

"Commander" is not a title but a rank here indeed. Do you know military realities? "Komandor" may be a chief of a fleet, of a base, or of a ship. It is exactly just like in the game. Hence I opt for "komandor" and I will do it. Not because I am on a pedestal but because of my general knowledge on our world. I will not deny that there is another reason for which I prefer "komandor": this term is similar to the English original one. I have known UFO: EU for years, and I used to play it in English. Hence every single unnecessary Polonization raises my resistance. And I expect that a translator, whoever he will be, will respect it. Simply speaking: I would not see here too much personal inventions.

I have given the example with "laser" not because of details but of the general rule. We borrow English words on the phonetic base but only if the loanword is felt really English, Germanic (cf. mail which may also be spelt "mejl" today in Polish). Words which have Greek and Latin roots are borrowed orthographically: radio, radar, laser are in this group. I do not know a single word of Greek origin, borrowed from English to Polish with the English pronunciation. All words with "ch" pronounced "k" in English belong to this group. It is true towards Celtic words too (hence Loch Ness is pronounced as it is written, i.e. [lox], not [lok]). Hence I cannot imagine borrowing "chrysalid" as "krysalid".

Taking "s" as "z" in words of Greek provenience is not typical now, even if it happened in the past. In practice, it is still possible only in some word-forming elements, like Gr. -ismos = Pl. -izm. So, "kryzalid" would be yet more untypical. However, indeed, a rare, bookish Polish word "chryzalida" for "poczwarka" is still noted in some dictionaries. I am a professional biologist (biology teacher) and I have never met this word in professional literature. Anyway, the substitution of "z" for "s" is, despite of all, more probable than taking "k" for the orthographic "ch" pronounced [k] in English. The dialectal ("rural") form Krystus has nothing to do with this all, as well as the Christian name Krzysztof, created in old times and because of mixing of the name of Christ and the Latin word for cross, "crux", borrowed to Polish as "krzyż" through old Bavarian dialectal "kriuži" (note a similar f/p problem in Pabianice but newer Fabian, or Szczepan together with newer Stefan). In Kraków, some older people still pronounce "k" instead of "ch"
  • in the final position, even in the pronoun "ich" (pronounced "ik"). However, we should not speak about dialectal forms at all, let's limit ourselves to the literary language.


I understand your point on "sektoidzi", the more that I am a Tolkien lover. However, as far as I know, Skibniewska writes "gobliny", not "goblini" in "Hobbit". Alien races are not like elves or dwarves (Tolkienisms), they are those bad ones, hence they do not deserve exalted forms. We can speak "elfowie" because they are human. "Orkowie" - because they come from elves. Unlike them, sectoids or mutons are inhuman. Don't you really feel it? Sektoidzi, mutoni, wężownicy? I do not like these forms at all. Sektoidy, mutony, wężowniki are more suitable for these wild beasts.

As a linguist-hobbyist I perfectly understand your problems with subjective/objective ambiguity. The example of "polskie badania" vs. "badania Polaków" is not fully parallel: "polski" means "referring to Poles" but "obcy" does not mean "referring to aliens". We do not have a suitable adjective in our language, if we translated "aliens" as "kosmici", we could create the form "kosmicki" ;). But let's not exaggerate. "Działalność obcych: żniwa" is fully acceptable (see below on the lowercase "o"), and I am happy we can agree in this point. "Badania prowadzone przez obcych" could be another possible variant. I only wonder if such strenuous avoiding of ambiguity is really needed. "Żniwa obcych", "badania obcych" etc. may be ambiguous but they are only titles... Each player knows what they mean.

I do not like writing "Obcy", however. Do you really see a nation here? I can see a conglomeration of different races rather. In English many things are big-lettered, including adjectives (like "Polish"), derivatives (like "Polonization"), and even months and days of the week (as well as the 1st person pronoun "I"). We Poles are much more economical with using capitals.

To sum it up... We agree that the present click system is not a good idea. I hope the right persons will understand it, and will withdraw from this idea. Then we could go back to the problem. As for now, probably we can only make translations for our personal purposes.

BTW., another ambiguity. "Our purposes" means "our common" or "of each of us individually"? The language has a lot of such instances, and despite of them, we can communicate... A miracle?

And finally, another "flower" (this is a word-for-word translation from Polish, I have no idea if anything similar is ever used in English, it means something like "setback"). STR_NEWSEEDONLOAD: has been translated as "Zapisz losowość" (write/save the randomness) which means exactly the opposite! I had serious problems because of this... A working, temporary, but comprehensible translation (far from being perfect) is "Nowa losowość przy załadowaniu"... (that means "nie zapisuj losowości" = "do not save the randomness" in fact!).

Offline Yankes

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2014, 09:50:38 pm »
One way to fix this is:
https://www.getlocalization.com/library/project-management/setting-acceptance-level-translations/
But I don't know if it available for free project like our.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2014, 01:38:45 pm »
Very educative post, grzegorj. It seems that the only hard parts are the parts where we differ as to how the aliens should be painted, or, in the wider perspective, the interpretation - made all much harder by the lack of "fluff" material ie. in-game descriptions. But let's move to the parts where I feel in disagreement with you.

1. Alien ranks

You've beaten me about the "przywódca" thing - it seems that only the Alien Brain deserves that title. However "komandor" is... just too marinistic. The Aliens - the way I am interpreting them - do not seem to have an earth-like military structure. They seem to be cloned to fit their respective roles. I don't know about you, but for me, personally, "komandor" opens a can of very different associations (Shepard, Kirk, Picard even if the latter were Captains) - a military rank that is given through promotion; XCom intelligence proving that aliens do have a structured military with a career path; etc. And as you know, associations are very important, especially in the low-context environment (games, yes, but also poetry).

"Dowódca" is indeed an unlucky word here, as it is too broad. However, for me, it is *this* word that is closer to the original than "komandor"; we simply have different definitions for closeness, as the phonetical closeness is for me, personally, almost irrelevant while compatibility of meaning is of prime importance. But are "komandor" and "dowódca" our only choices?

Aliens seem to be identified by their function (soldier, navigator, medic); "komandor" is not a function per se, it is a rank.
Example for rank/function: a ship's commander is usually referred to as "kapitan", captain, regardless of his actual military rank or the lack thereof; for "komandor", I don't recall such uses where the word describes function, not rank. However, the word "generał" can be used as function, "high/main military leader", "strategist", "member of military staff", and I think this is precisely "what the author meant" (yeah, the irony is not lost to me, but a translator often has to decide what the author meant). There is even sort of a precedence that shows people tend to interpret the alien commander this way - the muton general as the red muton from the intro is coloquially called "muton general".

So my current stance of the issue is:
Leader - oficer
Commander - generał

2. Chrysalid

I stand by "chryzalid", the word "chryzalida" might be very rare and niche but a precedence has been set. But "chrysalid" is also fully acceptable, naturally.

3. Persons or no-persons?

Indeed "gobliny" never had any exalted form... as it is a purposefully non-exalted name for orcs, so it wouldn't make sense; if an exalted form is needed, the form "orkowie" is used. I feel obliged to remind that orcs and goblins are one and the same thing in Tolkien's world (at least generally, if there are some minute differences in meaning, sorry for my ignorance; but there is definitely only a single race, not two).

But to the point. I prefer personified versions "mutoni", "sektoidzi" out of respect for the alien civilization and its culture, however hegemonic and dull it seems for us humans (remember that before their induction into the alien machine, they were all distinct species and cultures). I realize this is just an opinion. However, I'm not saying that the non-personal form "mutony" is wrong. I think they could be used interchangeably, with the official version being personified and colloquial non-personified.
However there is no personified form for Ethereals possible, but they're... different. Also, alien "pets" should stay non-personified: "celatydy", "sektopody" etc.

4. Capitalization (such double entendre!)

Yeah perhaps we should stay on the safe side and write "obcy" with a small letter. Can't go wrong with that while using a capital letter is indeed controversial.

Offline AndO3131

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Re: The new system can be destructive for the translation!
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2014, 03:04:43 pm »
Quote
One way to fix this is:
https://www.getlocalization.com/library/project-management/setting-acceptance-level-translations/
But I don't know if it available for free project like our.

This would be the best way to resolve issues with translations. Let's hope @SupSuper heard us  :)

As for other things:
Quote
So my current stance of the issue is:
Leader - oficer
Commander - generał
I would vote for it and use "komandor" for TFTD aliens (no doubt they will come for us  sooner or later ;) )