Author Topic: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?  (Read 9647 times)

Offline NoelBuddy

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2015, 08:17:12 pm »
Oh, right 101 because zero is an option too.  I'd play with this if it were an option.

Offline Falko

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2015, 08:20:38 pm »
see https://anydice.com/program/51fa
click on graph and you see 4 graphs
tftd/ufo as of now (the "non" curve)
the other graphs are with 2 dice throws
at last there is a 4 dice throw version
output 4d50 .. i like the most
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 08:30:01 pm by Falko »

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2015, 12:14:25 am »
Nice graphs Falko.  The only issue with 4 dice is that realistically, you are talking about 20-180 damage range because of the statistical insignificance of results lower or higher than that.

2 dice does seem like a decent solution. 

Though, overall, I am a TftD damage guy.  I always like to have some damage applied.  Rookies in pajamas shouldn't survive a plasma shot, imo. ;)

Offline robin

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2015, 02:37:26 am »
0-200% (vanilla)

UFO really embraces unpredictability by design. If you "tame" the damage output, then highly accurate weapons will become too predictable, too reliable. Explosives, that are allowed to be more reliable, are always limited one way or another.

It's all a sort of gamble: you manage your resources (TUs being the fundamental one) against the odds of "shit happening" without being allowed to be completely under control, and thus the 150% accurate heavy plasma shot does 0% damage to the sectoid, who then reaction-fires half your squad into subconsciousness with his Small Launcher.


Offline Markus Ramikin

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2015, 08:54:32 am »
Nice graphs Falko.  The only issue with 4 dice is that realistically, you are talking about 20-180 damage range because of the statistical insignificance of results lower or higher than that.
I feel the same way, the tails would get too thin if you used more than 2 dice.

But anyway, still hope someone in position to know will answer how well confirmed the 50-150% notion was, and if RSSWizard may be right that in fact TFTD used the two-dice system.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 08:58:30 am by Markus Ramikin »

Offline Falko

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2015, 09:47:25 am »
Nice graphs Falko.  The only issue with 4 dice is that realistically, you are talking about 20-180 damage range because of the statistical insignificance of results lower or higher than that.

2 dice does seem like a decent solution. 
if you want more 0-12/180-200 damage than 4d but less then 1d
take a look at the versionA/B graphs
https://anydice.com/program/520a (click graph)
Though, overall, I am a TftD damage guy.  I always like to have some damage applied.  Rookies in pajamas shouldn't survive a plasma shot, imo. ;)
i also prefer tftd damage formula even if i need 3-4 guys to bring down a sectopod

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2015, 04:11:59 pm »
0-200% (vanilla)

UFO really embraces unpredictability by design. If you "tame" the damage output, then highly accurate weapons will become too predictable, too reliable. Explosives, that are allowed to be more reliable, are always limited one way or another.

What he said. :)

It is simply normal in war that soldiers are sometimes hit with high damage weapons and survive with little damage. Rarely, but still. And I like that.

Offline vlad

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2015, 08:47:38 pm »
At the moment using TFTD formula, as that 0% dmg is just another way to say your soldier missed.

I dont like the way early game soldiers die tho, its like they are sent to the fight in pyjamas and HQ is expecting outcome other than binary. More wounds, less availible soldiers (sometimes i feel like feeding wild cats in zoo) and similar ruleset as planes got to allow injured soldiers with some handicap to be able still go on mission.

On the other hand, cant be too surprised when humanity is at stake and we get less funding than promoting a new car. Doh.

Offline Markus Ramikin

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2015, 10:38:29 pm »
Interesting thing about this thread is that most everyone is focusing on the low end of the damage, on the fact that 0-200% occasionally means deadly weapons don't kill.

To me it seems far more important what happens on the higher end. 150% max means you have a noticeably lower chance to get one-shotted instead of taking wounds, as a power/flying suit and even more so as a hovertank. Meaning game is more forgiving of poor scouting and positioning (= not a good thing, in my book). Let's do some math for fun (correct me please if I made any mistakes)

Take a rookie with 30 health using a power suit and getting a frontal hit (100 armor) from a heavy plasma (115 base):
Damage required to kill: 130 or more

With 0-200% rules, damage range is 231 long, from 0 to 230, and the killing damage range is 230-129 = 101 (damage values from 130 to 230 kill, damage values below that wound or do nothing).
101/231 = 43% chance.

With 50-150% rules, damage range is 116 long, from 57.5 to 172.5 (*), and the killing damage range is 172.5-129 = 43.5.
43.5/116 = 37.5% chance.
(*) I don't know which way the game rounds so I won't bother

Now 37.5% vs 43% chance to get oneshotted may not seem that much a difference, but we were looking at a rookie, and those are fragile in any case. Let's consider an experienced soldier - the kind we care about if they die or not - using a flying suit.
60 Health and 110 frontal armor.
Damage required to kill: 170 or more

With 0-200% rules, the killing damage range is 230-169 = 61.
61/231 = 26.4%

With 50-150% rules, the killing damage range is 172.5-169 = 3.5.
3.5/116 = 3%

Three percent.

Then you have the hovertank, which has 130 armor and 90 health... never mind one-shotting in this case, just consider max possible damage. 100 vs 42.

Now of course often you will be hit with entire series of shots, or not from the front, etc. Still... that's why I can't play 50-150% rules. Tried it, and it felt like easy mode.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2015, 11:00:48 pm by Markus Ramikin »

Offline Meridian

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2016, 08:32:28 pm »
"Double dice" is now available in my fork.
It's not an option for the user... but an option for the modders, who can say, which weapons will have this type of damage range.

Offline Phoenix7786

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2016, 08:38:03 am »
I've been a staunch TFTD ever since it was implemented, and so has my best friend.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2016, 10:11:26 pm »
Although I originally much preferred TftD formula, I then revised my pick recently.

50-150% means that early armors are pretty much useless, since 50% of an alien weapon hit will likely kill or main a soldier. Similarly, "only" 150% max damage means, as Markus showed, that heavy armors become really powerful.

Since I like rookies to sometimes survive, and veterans to sometimes die (well, in principle, I hate it when it happens, of course), EU formula works best.

The "two-dice" idea is interesting, as an in between version still with some extremes but also more averages.

Offline Phoenix7786

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2016, 09:29:13 am »
What's funny is I lose waaaaaay more Rookies through the 0-200% than I do with 50-150%.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2016, 04:44:20 pm »
A simpler formula would be POWER*((0...100%) + (0...100%))

Offline Arthanor

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Re: TFTD Damage or XCom damage?
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2016, 05:02:00 pm »
Isn't that what Meridian did with his two dice roll damage mode?