OpenXcom Forum
OpenXcom => Open Feedback => Topic started by: Recruit69 on July 25, 2014, 09:17:05 pm
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Which is better? Pros and cons?
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At the beginning of game, your soldiers have basically no armor. With the vanilla 0-200% damage variation, you can sometimes survive a plasma hit (rifle, heavy), with minor wound even. With the TFTD formula, death is almost guaranteed.
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downside sometimes your soldiers hit an alien 3-4 times and he will not drop dead
i prefer TFTD its more reliable for me and the aliens feel deadlier
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TFTD was my first game, and I knew that one shot could kill. AND deadly as you say too.
Let's face it, ANY shot that hits you, gotta HURT ALOT rather than "oh just a scratch". Often can significantly injure. Somehow I feel that TFTD would be more realistic.
There has been many occasions in OpenXcom where I shot 3 times in a row on a Sectoid with a Sniper rifle and the pest survived.
Though TFTD damage makes the mod Armoured Vest a necessity with regards to rookies being killed sooo easily in early game?
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I decided to choose vanilla 0-200% damage. I somehow like the idea that you can have hits that only cause small flesh wounds.
Though it might become quite silly if you hit sectoids 3 times and they only get flesh wounds. But that's what flesh wounds are. Silly :)
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I decided to choose vanilla 0-200% damage. I somehow like the idea that you can have hits that only cause small flesh wounds.
Me too, but I was more inclined to do so for the BOOM, HEADSHOT! effect if you roll very high damage. :P
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Me too, but I was more inclined to do so for the BOOM, HEADSHOT! effect if you roll very high damage. :P
: D hey just got an ideadl: may we get an option that guarantees a third solution, so we may have both flesh wounds and critical shots?peraphs even as a mod, but a openxcom native option would be....cracking
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: D hey just got an ideadl: may we get an option that guarantees a third solution, so we may have both flesh wounds and critical shots?peraphs even as a mod, but a openxcom native option would be....cracking
*sigh* With XCom damage, you have both flesh wounds and critical shots... That's the whole point.
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I really prefere the TFTD-Damage Formula.
It gives the game a more realistic feeling, if a plasma bolt from a rifle hits you, it should do serious damage.
On the other side multiplying the heavy plasma's damage by 2 is also not really something I'd want to have.
But indeed. If you take the TFTD-Damage, you might need a Mod, since the basic armour is often too weak for most alien weapons.
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*sigh* With XCom damage, you have both flesh wounds and critical shots... That's the whole point.
thanks for the clarification Solar, since i'd like more variety and casual stile (as in real life ;) ) I'd go vanilla stile. :)
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I posted a thread about this somewhere else, but to clarify . . . the behavior witnessed suggesting that TFTD did damage on a 50-150% basis may just be an assumption.
I found out from someone else that TFTD generates two random numbers, adds them together, then multiplies by the damage value.
That produces a "peak" average curve similar to rolling two standard dice, making the average more reliable, but still not excluding extremes.
Later on I witnessed this on a rare event when one of my (non armored) soldiers was shot by a Sonic Cannon (130 damage) and he survived and took somewhere around 30 damage from it. According to the 50% scheme he should have taken a minimum of 65 before armor.
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I posted a thread about this somewhere else, but to clarify . . . the behavior witnessed suggesting that TFTD did damage on a 50-150% basis may just be an assumption.
I found out from someone else that TFTD generates two random numbers, adds them together, then multiplies by the damage value.
That produces a "peak" average curve similar to rolling two standard dice, making the average more reliable, but still not excluding extremes.
A gauss curve. (actually no, I shouldn't assume everything and its fleas has a normal distribution :P)
I really like that idea. I ended up disabling the current "TFTD damage" option, because while a 150% max makes the game hard in some ways (killing Sectopods with most weapons becomes a dubious proposition), it makes the game too easy in other ways: my hovertanks almost never die, and my rookies with laser rifles and power suits almost never kill each other when mind-controlled. A two-die roll with a max at 200% would keep my strategies effective, but allow for an occasional critical hit to cost me something.
Sorry for the necro, but this was never answered and I'm curious. What do our wizards think? Has it been well-established that the TFTD damage formula is in fact 50%-150%?
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I prefer 0-200%... 0% representing "saved by a bible (or alcohol bottle) in the vest pocket" and 200% representing a "headshot".
The problem with 50-150% is that 150% is just not enough to kill a Sectopod in a reasonable way.
I would actually prefer a 3rd option: double roll with 0-100%... this way you can have 0-200% range, but the distribution is much more realistic (resp. closer to something called normal/Gaussian distribution), with values closer to average having a higher probability. Current implementation, where all numbers are equally probable is not the best there is IMHO.
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I would actually prefer a 3rd option: double roll with 0-100%... this way you can have 0-200% range, but the distribution is much more realistic (resp. closer to something called normal/Gaussian distribution), with values closer to average having a higher probability.
Just to clarify what you are suggesting do you mean: (POWER * (1d100%))*(1d100%) = damage never mind that one wouldn't work; or DAMAGE = (POWER * 1d100%) + (POWER * 1d100%) or some possibility I'm not thinking of?
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I mean the latter.
Imagine it as throwing two 101-sided dice. First die can be between 0 and 100, second die also between 0 and 100. Together they will yield a number between 0 and 200.
The probability of throwing 0 is little less than 0.01 %, but the probability of throwing 100 is a lot higher (approx. 0.99% if my calculation is correct).
In the current implementation, all numbers are equally probable (approx. 0.49%).
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Oh, right 101 because zero is an option too. I'd play with this if it were an option.
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see https://anydice.com/program/51fa
click on graph and you see 4 graphs
tftd/ufo as of now (the "non" curve)
the other graphs are with 2 dice throws
at last there is a 4 dice throw version
output 4d50 .. i like the most
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Nice graphs Falko. The only issue with 4 dice is that realistically, you are talking about 20-180 damage range because of the statistical insignificance of results lower or higher than that.
2 dice does seem like a decent solution.
Though, overall, I am a TftD damage guy. I always like to have some damage applied. Rookies in pajamas shouldn't survive a plasma shot, imo. ;)
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0-200% (vanilla)
UFO really embraces unpredictability by design. If you "tame" the damage output, then highly accurate weapons will become too predictable, too reliable. Explosives, that are allowed to be more reliable, are always limited one way or another.
It's all a sort of gamble: you manage your resources (TUs being the fundamental one) against the odds of "shit happening" without being allowed to be completely under control, and thus the 150% accurate heavy plasma shot does 0% damage to the sectoid, who then reaction-fires half your squad into subconsciousness with his Small Launcher.
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Nice graphs Falko. The only issue with 4 dice is that realistically, you are talking about 20-180 damage range because of the statistical insignificance of results lower or higher than that.
I feel the same way, the tails would get too thin if you used more than 2 dice.
But anyway, still hope someone in position to know will answer how well confirmed the 50-150% notion was, and if RSSWizard may be right that in fact TFTD used the two-dice system.
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Nice graphs Falko. The only issue with 4 dice is that realistically, you are talking about 20-180 damage range because of the statistical insignificance of results lower or higher than that.
2 dice does seem like a decent solution.
if you want more 0-12/180-200 damage than 4d but less then 1d
take a look at the versionA/B graphs
https://anydice.com/program/520a (click graph)
Though, overall, I am a TftD damage guy. I always like to have some damage applied. Rookies in pajamas shouldn't survive a plasma shot, imo. ;)
i also prefer tftd damage formula even if i need 3-4 guys to bring down a sectopod
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0-200% (vanilla)
UFO really embraces unpredictability by design. If you "tame" the damage output, then highly accurate weapons will become too predictable, too reliable. Explosives, that are allowed to be more reliable, are always limited one way or another.
What he said. :)
It is simply normal in war that soldiers are sometimes hit with high damage weapons and survive with little damage. Rarely, but still. And I like that.
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At the moment using TFTD formula, as that 0% dmg is just another way to say your soldier missed.
I dont like the way early game soldiers die tho, its like they are sent to the fight in pyjamas and HQ is expecting outcome other than binary. More wounds, less availible soldiers (sometimes i feel like feeding wild cats in zoo) and similar ruleset as planes got to allow injured soldiers with some handicap to be able still go on mission.
On the other hand, cant be too surprised when humanity is at stake and we get less funding than promoting a new car. Doh.
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Interesting thing about this thread is that most everyone is focusing on the low end of the damage, on the fact that 0-200% occasionally means deadly weapons don't kill.
To me it seems far more important what happens on the higher end. 150% max means you have a noticeably lower chance to get one-shotted instead of taking wounds, as a power/flying suit and even more so as a hovertank. Meaning game is more forgiving of poor scouting and positioning (= not a good thing, in my book). Let's do some math for fun (correct me please if I made any mistakes)
Take a rookie with 30 health using a power suit and getting a frontal hit (100 armor) from a heavy plasma (115 base):
Damage required to kill: 130 or more
With 0-200% rules, damage range is 231 long, from 0 to 230, and the killing damage range is 230-129 = 101 (damage values from 130 to 230 kill, damage values below that wound or do nothing).
101/231 = 43% chance.
With 50-150% rules, damage range is 116 long, from 57.5 to 172.5 (*), and the killing damage range is 172.5-129 = 43.5.
43.5/116 = 37.5% chance.
(*) I don't know which way the game rounds so I won't bother
Now 37.5% vs 43% chance to get oneshotted may not seem that much a difference, but we were looking at a rookie, and those are fragile in any case. Let's consider an experienced soldier - the kind we care about if they die or not - using a flying suit.
60 Health and 110 frontal armor.
Damage required to kill: 170 or more
With 0-200% rules, the killing damage range is 230-169 = 61.
61/231 = 26.4%
With 50-150% rules, the killing damage range is 172.5-169 = 3.5.
3.5/116 = 3%
Three percent.
Then you have the hovertank, which has 130 armor and 90 health... never mind one-shotting in this case, just consider max possible damage. 100 vs 42.
Now of course often you will be hit with entire series of shots, or not from the front, etc. Still... that's why I can't play 50-150% rules. Tried it, and it felt like easy mode.
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"Double dice" is now available in my fork.
It's not an option for the user... but an option for the modders, who can say, which weapons will have this type of damage range.
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I've been a staunch TFTD ever since it was implemented, and so has my best friend.
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Although I originally much preferred TftD formula, I then revised my pick recently.
50-150% means that early armors are pretty much useless, since 50% of an alien weapon hit will likely kill or main a soldier. Similarly, "only" 150% max damage means, as Markus showed, that heavy armors become really powerful.
Since I like rookies to sometimes survive, and veterans to sometimes die (well, in principle, I hate it when it happens, of course), EU formula works best.
The "two-dice" idea is interesting, as an in between version still with some extremes but also more averages.
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What's funny is I lose waaaaaay more Rookies through the 0-200% than I do with 50-150%.
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A simpler formula would be POWER*((0...100%) + (0...100%))
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Isn't that what Meridian did with his two dice roll damage mode?