New Feature: Infinite base sizes, POLL

[Nattfarinn]

Good idea or bad, I just hate "if-you-don't-like-my-idea-I'll-force-you-via-democracy" stance.

But I'm not fan of such additions to game. I'm not even sure what to think about current Advanced rules inside of OpenXCom. I would rather opt for leaving OpenXCom as much vanilla as possible with strong modding support. Don't get me wrong Warboy, you did great job and you obviously know it. I just think you might did too much

[Solarius Scorch]

The problem is, you can't have "strong modding support" without actually adding stuff to the code. You can't for example have shotgun pellets, which many mods use.

[animal310]

I think the vast majority of stuff that has been allowed has really added to the game and made it better. There is still the option to play vanilla so I don’t see the issue that Nattfarinn has? But yes I do think that certain stuff, like unlimited bases should be excluded. It’s a judgement call and I think Warboy1982 SupSuper and Daiky have been doing a great job in that respect.

[SupSuper]

It's true we tend to have very floaty reasonings on why we let some options in and some options out, but if we're forced to draw a line it's gonna be all or nothing.

[Vulgar Monkey]

Personally I've always subscribed to the idea of having lots of options open to the player to use or disregard at their own judgement, relying on their own willpower or self-limiting of actions for game balance. Plus, as mentioned previously I can see that there would actually be a fair balance of pro's and cons. You can put all your eggs in one basket in a high risk strategy, or you can hedge your bets and decentralise, or develop some kind of specialisation....point is, it alters defensibility considerations, redundancy and economy. How you split your supplies and manpower. How you split your time and money. That's something that could be further tuned by messing with costs (access lift included) to shift a bias towards certain types of behaviours, assuming the code is externalised to an ini file. From a gameplay perspective I have no issue.

That said however, I do understand that as the leader of a project you do have to consider the overall stability of the platform - it's no good introducing one thing if it's going to result in an inundation of bugfixes and compatibility problems with other mods, thereby making openxcom less 'open', as it were. Tricky.

Is it not possible to compromise and release this as a standalone mod, or does it require that the code is committed to the core build?

[Nattfarinn]

Sorry, because of my bad english it's hard for me to explain and express feelings.

I have no issue, it was my opinion as a developer that it is much better (in general) to have as "vanilla" engine as possible with script language as modding base. It's just more flexible for both, core and mod developers. It's not a vote, request or argument for or against anything.

As a gamer and huge fan of original X-Com games I am totally fine with OpenXCom as it is right now.

[moriarty]

1) infinite base sizes: hell no. bigger bases: well maybe, but I see a lot of trouble coming our way (base-selection mini-icons, base defense missions, you-name-it)
2) wording of the poll: completely biased. no-no.
3) warboys explanation: good points, and yes, somebody needs to draw the line and make the important decisions... that's up to the core programmers. the alternative isn't democracy but anarchy. sad but true.
4) fenyo: seriously, you are letting this get to you? or is there something else going on? if your ideas are rejected, don't be mad - maybe they really are a bit too wild. but I have seen good additions made by you, and quitting like that isn't helping anybody (and neither is it punishing anybody, really, except yourself)

[pmprog]

The bit that made me like this idea was that if you wanted a 4x4 base, it would be cheaper than a 6x6 base, which would be cheaper than a 10x10 base (for example). So this opened up the ability for you to afford more bases, just with fewer stuff in them.

But I can understand why Warboy doesn't want it.

[Yankes]

Personally I've always subscribed to the idea of having lots of options open to the player to use or disregard at their own judgement, relying on their own willpower or self-limiting of actions for game balance. Plus, as mentioned previously I can see that there would actually be a fair balance of pro's and cons. You can put all your eggs in one basket in a high risk strategy, or you can hedge your bets and decentralise, or develop some kind of specialisation....point is, it alters defensibility considerations, redundancy and economy. How you split your supplies and manpower. How you split your time and money. That's something that could be further tuned by messing with costs (access lift included) to shift a bias towards certain types of behaviours, assuming the code is externalised to an ini file. From a gameplay perspective I have no issue.

That said however, I do understand that as the leader of a project you do have to consider the overall stability of the platform - it's no good introducing one thing if it's going to result in an inundation of bugfixes and compatibility problems with other mods, thereby making openxcom less 'open', as it were. Tricky.

Is it not possible to compromise and release this as a standalone mod, or does it require that the code is committed to the core build?

Warboy dont limit anybody, all Fenyő code is public available and anybody can compile/fork from that. Git & GitHub dont discriminate branches.
Only difference between branches is with get more attention in development and forking.
Another interesting aspect of this situation is different branches that try be up to date with master branch. Every change in master branch made harder to do it, its natural but if changes arent useful enough they put burden on everyone else.

[michal]

Exactly, more code almost always means more things to maintain. If SupSuper and Warboy would accept every feature, in couple years, OpenXcom code could just be lots of ugly hacks.

Also, this topic and whole situation can lead to one conclusion. If any developer wants to develop some new fancy feature, he should FIRST discuss it with community and ASK core team if it is interested in committing it to main / official branch. Otherwise one has to accept that his work can be rejected and lot of hours can be wasted. Of course there's always option for unofficial branch.

[Sturm]

There's the whole long war movement that has ideas like more research needed, longer research needed, weaker facilities, etc. I think that it may end up with bases being needed to be quite bigger to do anything.

For example I use 20 man living quarters, 10 man laboratories, 10x longer research times, Elerium and Alien Alloys being required by many techs, etc.

In a long game with less powerful individual facilities greater space to growth are very desirable. Getting new crafts could require massive laboratory and manufacturing complexes. In my last game, my main research base was composed almost entirely of laboratories and living quarters.

Radars could also be made weaker, introducing many difficult choices.

[Vulgar Monkey]

I always played in exactly the same way, using the aforementioned self-limiting playstyles in lieu of any actual hardcoded mechanics.
Things like deliberate avoidance of the usual laser-cannon mass production, or having smaller numbers of scientists/engineers spread across several projects to drag things out. Or even just the old xcomutil ini tweaks to alter storage capacity etc.

It's a legitimate option gameplay-wise, but as said it's just the difficulty of actually coding it all in.

If I understand yankes correctly and this could instead be released as a standalone then it'd be nice to have the option.

[El Yahpo]

There's the whole long war movement that has ideas like more research needed, longer research needed, weaker facilities, etc. I think that it may end up with bases being needed to be quite bigger to do anything.

For example I use 20 man living quarters, 10 man laboratories, 10x longer research times, Elerium and Alien Alloys being required by many techs, etc.

In a long game with less powerful individual facilities greater space to growth are very desirable. Getting new crafts could require massive laboratory and manufacturing complexes. In my last game, my main research base was composed almost entirely of laboratories and living quarters.

Having more base space would change the point of making those facilities weaker. Having the same size bases and weaker facilities is "let's make the game harder." Having a large base and weak facilities is "let's make the game longer." Different end results. Thus, if this suggestion is every relevant, the two changes should be different options.

Also, where did you get the weaker facilities? Did you make them?

[BlackLibrary]

True democracy is not by vote.  As a good libertarian once said:
"Democracy must be something more than two wolves and one lamb voting on what to have for dinner."

A vote is not enough...put the tool for consumption and let those who consume it judge its value.  Other than that, voiting to force Warboy or anyone's hand is garbage.

I will say this to WayBoy and others:  You've all carried the ball, and continue to do so.  If the burden of choosing is too odious or tiresome, then perhaps its wise to assign someone or a group the task of judging and sorting before it bubbles up to you.  These requests filter through them and he/she/they if it should bubble up to you.  If and/or when it bubbles up to you, you are the final arbiter and not the only arbiter who has the bear the weight alone.  Its simply not fair to you, and not worth the burden/load that leads to burnout.  I am sympathetic to the plight, as I've been there.  You are displaying real leadership.  Its noted and appreciated, though it can be cursed as "tyranny".  A very unfair personal shot on you.

[Aldorn]

You know what?

I unburden your job.

I will NOT contribute ANYTHING EVER AGAIN to this project!

And this is the last time you guys saw me.

Do whatever you want....

@Fenyõ, I am interested in this feature
But if dev say no, we have to trust them

We have to never forget this project would never have become what it is, if dev people were different
Thanks to them, most of us are very very satisfied to all new features and modding possibilities they provide

Stay by us, dude, we need your contribution