Author Topic: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors  (Read 922 times)

Offline norpan83

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CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« on: January 10, 2025, 11:39:29 pm »
It feels like the CF-105 ARROW is a bit weak, maybe it should be buffed a bit,
If you add a second cannon slot,
it would allow it to confidently attack the helicopters defending the greater manors.

This would give it some use in the Promotion 2 era,
if you have to wait until stingrays to use it, you are basically at MIG's anyway, so you don't need to use the arrow.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2025, 01:01:42 pm »
I suppose that if anything, the Arrow competes with the Little Bird, not the MiG.

I don't think I can change its stats any further without losing touch with what it is in reality, though.

Offline psavola

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2025, 02:39:32 pm »
I was puzzled by OP's suggestion that someone would consider using ARROW without STINGRAY missile launcher. But I suppose someone does.. and in that role I suppose it could be underwhelming.

In addition to dealing with the cults, missile-powered ARROW is also suitable for shooting down syndicate retaliation crafts (scarab and dragonfly) while LITTLE BIRD is too slow for them (not sure if it would have firepower anyway). So I suppose it's closer to MIGs at least with this respect.

Offline envLight

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2025, 11:10:08 am »
I don't think I can change its stats any further without losing touch with what it is in reality, though.

Then what about alternative before-raider fly vehicle? :p

I heard ideas that Canadian goverment could rebrand CF-105 project into commercial jets, why not bring some retired people to help defeat the cult invasion?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2025, 03:00:29 pm »
Then what about alternative before-raider fly vehicle? :p

I am not against it on principle, but I doubt we can squeeze one more transporter in there. It's already crowded as heck and IMO would feel like bloat.

Offline hairybert

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2025, 07:06:36 pm »
It feels like the CF-105 ARROW is a bit weak, maybe it should be buffed a bit,

I don't think I can change its stats any further without losing touch with what it is in reality, though.

Maybe the CF-105 could show up a bit earlier in the game timeline?
In a typical (spoiled) game, it comes only shortly before the MiG is available and thus is superseded soon.

Possibilities include getting a hint for the CF-105 from a secret file. Or to unlock it already from intterrogating the next lower rank to an EXALT master, which I think is an EXALT enforcer.

OTOH, the question is what this would really change. As pointed out by psavola and discussed there https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=12250.0, it could help with Syndicate retaliation, but you still won't be able to do the subsequent missions with the short time window.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2025, 07:08:28 pm by hairybert »

Offline Empiro

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2025, 01:31:15 am »
The question is definitely what niche the Arrow fulfills. Even the MIG doesn't have much of a niche -- it's far too fragile to intercept any UFOs, and I don't think I've ever used a single one because the Interceptor does the job so much better.

By the point you can get the Stingray, you've got promo 3 and the Interceptor isn't far off. With just the cannon, you can't reliably fight the level 3 cult manors. Even against the level 2 cults, there's not much of a difference compared to the Little Bird.

Offline psavola

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2025, 06:44:59 am »
In my dozen campaigns, I have never used MIGs or even INTERCEPTORs myself. Now that KITSUNE has been pushed off a bit, I might consider one of these, depending on when I get access to alien power systems research and at which point I'm with the Syndicate arc when this happens.

The specific niche for ARROW is that it is fast (compared to LITTLE BIRD). You will want faster crafts than LITTLE BIRD by the point you need to prepare for and to respond to syndicate retaliation. But I suppose you should be Promo III when this happens and could use others beside the ARROW (and you may want to have a couple of interceptors across the globe, so that you can respond to the retaliation whereever it spawns). Before KITSUNE was pushed off, I used KITSUNE for shooting down the syndicate. Post-change, I think I had already access and built a THUNDERSTORM to take care of the bastards.

Offline norpan83

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Re: CF-105 ARROW vs Greater Manors
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2025, 02:21:58 pm »
I agree that you don't really need early combat aircraft. The manor defenders are slow enough that you can just fly in and out without them catching you.

But my point is that as the CF-105 ARROW is an unique aircraft,  it would be nice if it had some use case, however niche.