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Author Topic: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.  (Read 1087 times)

Offline Juku121

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2022, 01:38:34 pm »
How can you do any serious mission with DRAGONFLY if they are challenging enough even with OSPREY?
Not all missions are that challenging, and you can have both Dragonfly and Osprey in service at the same time.

...I have no incentive to rush for SKRANGER when I have OSPREY.
Skyranger is moderately faster and significantly longer-ranged. Osprey cannot cover the whole globe. Even quite a few Ospreys struggle. Skyranger has that covered, and comes in a package with Skyraider for time-critical missions.

Of course, Kitsune kills such considerations stone dead.

As for armament, pretty much everything can be shot down with Avalanche without taking a backfire. I with there were some benefits to use anything besides Avalanche, but I don't think there is.
Battleships, Cruisers and hunter-killers say hello.

But in general, I agree, UFOs are a bit too toothless.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2022, 03:12:00 pm »
Thanks for all the valuable input.

What I gathered is, summed as briefly as possible:
1. No craft is universally useless (opinions vary by people, including myself), so it'd have to be a completely new craft.
2. Kitsune may come too early.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2022, 07:25:23 pm »
Thanks for all the valuable input.

What I gathered is, summed as briefly as possible:
1. No craft is universally useless (opinions vary by people, including myself), so it'd have to be a completely new craft.
2. Kitsune may come too early.
->
Quote
@Solarius, OP offered an alternative - a heavy missile version of the PIKE, akin to the stingray. Why wouldn't this be an option?

Still waiting for a comment on this one. We have a "heavy" version of the STINGRAY and of the STORMLANCE - why is the PIKE exempt from this?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2022, 08:01:06 pm »
Still waiting for a comment on this one. We have a "heavy" version of the STINGRAY and of the STORMLANCE - why is the PIKE exempt from this?

Right, sorry. It wasn't exactly on topic, so I skipped it in the summary.
I just never got around to do this, and nobody asked. I'll add it to my list.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 08:04:58 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Vakrug

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2022, 10:58:05 am »
Osprey cannot cover the whole globe.
So what? By the time Osprey appears you should already have few bases with hangars around the world.
Battleships, Cruisers and hunter-killers say hello.
And how PIKE / STORMLANCE, STINGRAY and GAUSS CANNON we are talking about makes difference? Even plasma beams will not help in this situation.

1. No craft is universally useless (opinions vary by people, including myself), so it'd have to be a completely new craft.
Even SENTINEL and LIGHTNING? I haven't found any usage of this crafts in this thread.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2022, 11:09:31 am by Vakrug »

Offline Juku121

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2022, 12:25:52 pm »
So what? By the time Osprey appears you should already have few bases with hangars around the world.
You must have at least 3 bases (and just as many strike teams, equipment, training, transformations, etc.) with Ospreys to even start getting global coverage. And an Osprey needs ~11+ hours to reach most of a hemisphere. A Dragonfly reaches about exactly half the world in ~10 hours. A Skyranger can get anywhere in ~8 hours. Each type means at least +1 craft needed for global coverage, and what if several missions pop up close to each other? Or you actually want to reach a terror site or a landed UFO before it takes off? Skyranger wins all these contests quite handily.

In short, you can either beat the game into submission with a fleet of Ospreys, or make life much easier for yourself with the Sky... craft.

And how PIKE / STORMLANCE, STINGRAY and GAUSS CANNON we are talking about makes difference? Even plasma beams will not help in this situation.
If you pay attention, I am not talking about those. I am merely responding to your claim that "pretty much everything can be shot down with Avalanche without taking a backfire." And once you are taking fire, Avalanche has such poor DPS and overall damage capacity per sortie that even Stingrays are better. Of course, you need an interceptor (or four) that's not made out of cardboard to field any of those against alien warships, but that's true for pretty much anything besides Fusion Balls and non-Battleships.

Even SENTINEL and LIGHTNING? I haven't found any usage of this crafts in this thread.
Sentinel I've never gotten to use. That one might indeed be a dud.

Lightning is a very convenient package of being an interceptor good enough to kill weak UFOs, an okay crew size for non-hardcore missions (like said UFOs, or a lot of the conspiracy stuff that's still happening) and a 'pop-and-drop' layout that's ideal for open field missions.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2022, 02:54:04 pm »
A question about the planned heavy version of the Pike: what should it require (besides the Pike itself)? I don't want to give it exactly the same prerequisites, because then you'd only get one article automatically displayed, and that isn't elegant. Then again, I can't think of any prerequisites which wouldn't feel forced.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2022, 03:28:46 pm »
"Heavy Pike Launcher"? :P Doesn't the same problem already exist for Stingray and Stormlance? I'd give all these topics a few dozen man-hours and call it a day.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2022, 04:34:50 pm »
Yeah, I see no problem with this being in line with the other launchers. If anything it would be kind of strange if this was the only launcher that needed a separate research topic, something neither the stingray nor the stormlance variants require.

Offline Vakrug

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2022, 08:58:59 pm »
You must have at least 3 bases (and just as many strike teams, equipment, training, transformations, etc.) with Ospreys to even start getting global coverage.
Are you repeating the same error I made in my very first game in X-COM Files? No, you don't need several strike teams. You just transfer your OSPREY. It automatically gets transferred with all crew and items. You can even transfer crafts using their own engines for free.

Or you actually want to reach a terror site or a landed UFO before it takes off?
Are you talking about time when invasion stars? But Kitsune will appear far earlier then this date. I am talking about pre-invasion time.

Sentinel I've never gotten to use. That one might indeed be a dud.

Lightning is a very convenient package of being an interceptor good enough to kill weak UFOs, an okay crew size for non-hardcore missions (like said UFOs, or a lot of the conspiracy stuff that's still happening) and a 'pop-and-drop' layout that's ideal for open field missions.
The main problems with those crafts is that there is absolutely no reason for a craft to be both combat and troop carrier. With Sentinel there is a problem that there is no space mission doable with 8 agents. May be with the exception of last UAC mission where you can just grab a book and run before demons get you. And the biggest problem with Lightning is that after few days after you research it you will research Avenger, so why bother with Lighting? May be this 'pop-and-drop' layout is convenient, but more crew is generally better.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2022, 10:38:00 pm »
You just transfer your OSPREY. It automatically gets transferred with all crew and items. You can even transfer crafts using their own engines for free.
Which is tedious (also setting up training all over again), takes enough time that critical missions (terrors and such) are usually not doable that way, you need enough bases and enough ammo and other consumables in all those bases. Plus whatever casualties you take (WIA, even if you savescum yourself out of KIA) need replacing and sick bay slots. And what if you get a bad sanity hit?

In case the mission is not near a base, you can be looking at a day or so before an Osprey gets there (up to ~15-16 hours transfer time plus up to ~11 hours flight time). I've had the Kitsune arrive at monster terror sites with an hour or two to spare.

One team plus backups works with the Kitsune. One Osprey means you'll miss at least some rather important missions unless the RNG gods favour you. It's also kind of gamey, and you might have seen that I like a certain amount of 'realism' in my X-Com.

Are you talking about time when invasion stars? But Kitsune will appear far earlier then this date. I am talking about pre-invasion time.
Monster terror sites, Blood Moons, some convoys and assassinations if you don't detect them fast enough, BL parties, Mansion defences, some story missions, the list goes on. And what do you do when several of them pop up in close succession?

Kitsune's timing is a problem, as said previously.

The main problems with those crafts is that there is absolutely no reason for a craft to be both combat and troop carrier.
First, a fighter-transporter is its own escort against hunter-killers. 

Second, convenience. You don't need a separate transport and you can do the mission right away. You don't even want a full crew for all missions. I've watched enough streamers move only a few soldiers per turn to know.

And the biggest problem with Lightning is that after few days after you research it you will research Avenger, so why bother with Lighting? May be this 'pop-and-drop' layout is convenient, but more crew is generally better.
Because a Lightning is more economical? You still want an Avenger, but once UFOs start popping up all over the place, it is no longer physically possible to do all landings/crash sites with just one craft. Or even two crafts. Flight, refueling, rearming and repair times won't allow it.

That's also more of a problem of the Avenger being too easy to get. Again.

Finally, have you actually tried the Lightning? The roof lifts are so damn convenient in the opening stages of a mission. There's a reason why Piratez craft with roof access are popular. Only the Ironfist has something similar, and that craft has its own problems.


Sentinel seems to me like an inferior Lightning, all told. If you need firepower, you want the Avenger anyway.

Offline Vakrug

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2022, 11:06:06 am »
I assume we play different games. I never had a problem to respond with one OSPREY with the exception of "Cyberweb/Syndicate robbing military base". I never had a problem with doing all landings/crash sites with just one craft (Kitsume, Iron Fist and Avenger).
But I will definitely try Lightning sometimes.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2022, 02:57:52 pm »
I assume we play different games.
We actually do. Mine is somewhat modified, including changes to many craft. Although Osprey is still quite close to what it's in the base mod, only somewhat slower.

I never had a problem with doing all landings/crash sites with just one craft (Kitsume, Iron Fist and Avenger).
What do you do when 6-8 UFOs land during e.g. a base-creation mission? A single craft won't have time to go through even two of them before they take off again. Maybe you can get a second one with one of the endgame craft and a third-fourth with a second landing, but that's that.

When it happened to me in the first few months of the invasion, I already had the Kitsune, and still had to scramble half a dozen Skyrangers and Skyraiders to go along.

I have also come close to missing monster terror sites even with near global coverage with both Ospreys and Dragonflies (and my Dragonflies are close to identical to vanilla ones). I did manage to do all the 'site' missions while I had the Kitsune, but Kitsune is just too good.

Offline Vakrug

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2022, 12:54:41 am »
What do you do when 6-8 UFOs land during e.g. a base-creation mission? A single craft won't have time to go through even two of them before they take off again.
Depending on where on geosphere this event occurs and how simultaneously they land it may be possible to apprehend them all with single craft. Or just leave them alone, you cannot prevent base construction anyway, and it is not strictly required to get them all. And this event is quite rare. And who will be in additional crafts? Rookies?
but Kitsune is just too good.
Seriously, why Kitsune is in a game in the first place? Maybe I missed that discussion. I know Kiri-Kai organization (or something similar) is part of an official lore, but I don't remember about Kitsune. In either case lore alone is not a reason to introduce a craft that make obsolete every troop carrier until "Iron Fist" before they even gets researched.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Considerations for the THUNDERSTORM craft configuration options.
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2022, 10:42:25 am »
Depending on where on geosphere this event occurs and how simultaneously they land it may be possible to apprehend them all with single craft.
Unless they land close by, it isn't. Base missions have 6 UFOs, most of which land for 2x4 hours, and the Battleship lands only once for five, so it's got to be the first or second target. Even the Avenger can fly to about a quarter of the globe (which I think is a reasonably average distance) 4-5 times in 8-10 hours, and then needs most of a day for refueling (and at least three hours for another mission if you launch it early, so the UFOs are most likely gone by then). Unless you want to waste time and fuel tailing them to get a leg up on the first mission, which is worse. And of course the aliens will choose to build their base nowhere near where the Avenger is currently stationed :P, so getting 4-5 out of 6 UFOs is not a guarantee.

The Ironfist has twice the flight time so can only do two missions, though it refuels much faster. Maybe three if the stars align.

The Kitsune goes the same distance in about five hours and can do it twice, so you get maybe two UFOs.

The aliens can also happen to schedule another mission at the same time, so that's another UFO or two somewhere entirely different.

So unless you use the Avenger, it's not even close.

Or just leave them alone, you cannot prevent base construction anyway, and it is not strictly required to get them all.
No, but I want to loot them all for cash, Elerium and score (I get paid by score 8) ).

And this event is quite rare.
About 10% per month once your're well into the second year of the invasion. Kinda rare, yes.

And who will be in additional crafts? Rookies?
The second and third strike team and/or their backups. You spread your missions around with multiple strike bases. Rookies with training and transformations are also kinda passable.

Seriously, why Kitsune is in a game in the first place?
AFAIK, it's something Solarius either made up or adapted from somewhere obscure. Why it comes when it does, well, he's kinda attached to it. :D



As an aside, I'd like more multi-UFO missions. I was a big fan of the UFO 'swarms' back in UFO:ET's Unimod/Bman's mod. Xenonauts also hits you with a bunch of them in close succession.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2022, 10:45:15 am by Juku121 »