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Author Topic: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03  (Read 58227 times)

Offline XCOMFan419

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #135 on: November 07, 2014, 08:05:44 pm »
Sorry for the late answer:

HESH is High Explosive Squash Head.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #136 on: November 07, 2014, 08:26:46 pm »
@XComFan419: The stuff I learn by playing XCom..! Thanks for the info, it was super easy to find on wiki now!

@HelmetHair: Cool stuff!

One thing to state at the beginning: I don't like the idea introduced in the new XCom of chopping off limbs from people and turning them into cyborgs. That's not XCom to me, that's Robocop and borders into 40k dreadnoughts (except it's done on healthy soldiers instead of wounded/near death ones, so it's even worse).

XCom is not a distopia, it's a utopia of everybody working together to stop the aliens (until some cowards sign treaties, at least). It's not based on a setting where life is cheap, it's in the early 21st century where human and animal rights are pretty strong.

So I won't go about chopping dogs or giving them metal teeth. I think at the beginning of the game, they have a place as attack dogs, especially once up armoured with alien alloys. But once the mid-game aliens enter, you don't send the dog to take out a snakeman and especially not a chryssalid. There's no way even an alien alloy set of dog teeth should compare to the damage inflicted by a laser/plasma shot and that's the kind of damage needed to engage those. It's even worse against mutons and especially ethereals (who could just fly up). So the roles of dogs need to change to scout and logistics, hence the doggy senses and carrying capacity.

Now onto tanks: I like the idea you are suggesting with the tank and turret progression. It's sort of what I was trying to do with the alloy hull allowing progression of the tracked tanks so they do not become obsolete so fast but I agree it needs more tiers. 10 different hulls (5 tracked, 5 hover) and 15 turrets is A LOT though, even by restricting the compatibility, you have about.. 50 different tanks in your proposal. There's no way a player would come close to using all of them.

One thing is, if you have too many tiers, a player doesn't spend enough time in a given one to make use of it. It would be easy to skip tier 1-2 tanks and go straight for 3, then wait until 5 to renew the armoury. Much like some players skip lasers to go straight for plasma in the original.

I think I'll take 3 tracked tanks (basic, alloy hull, heavy alloy hull + elerium engine) and 2 hovertanks (one equivalent to the best tracked tank, one better but really expensive). That brings it down to 4 tiers and 5 chassis, with T3 tanks seeing the most use.

I prefer the final hovertank to be better armoured except for under armour (because it doesn't feel gravity, so armour weight doesn't matter, but the lower part is taken up by more vulnerable anti-gravity devices). Armour could progress simply by tiers. The tracked tank would have better accuracy (it is on the ground, so it is more stable). Our understanding of anti-gravity being recent, our hovertanks are a bit wobbly.

This way you have a trade off of having great firing lines by being high, or great accuracy by being on the ground, no tank is the perfect sniper. Flying makes you more visible, but with the T4 one you have better armour to compensate. And if you hug the ground with your T4 hovertank, well you're an expensive, slightly inaccurate but up-armoured tracked tank. Seems like there's no clear winner that way. The more I think about it, the more I want the hovertank (at least the T5 one, maybe all tanks with Elerium Engines) to blow up like cyberdiscs too.

Also, vanilla hovertank+25% armour is 130*1.25 = 162.5 armor, even heavy plasmas would have a hard time with it, especially if using TftD formulas. I don't think tanks need to go much beyond 130. That's not taking into account damage modifiers, at 50%, no plasma weapon could scratch a tank (heavy plasma is 115 damage, 230 max with EU damage formula, half for the modifier is back to 115, less than even vanilla hovertank armour, let alone boosted one). Aliens have to be able to kill tanks and I don't think tanks should rival sectopods in terms of armour.

Regarding turrets, stun and breacher weapons are great ideas, and you missed Gauss ;)

Making a "limited but sufficient" selection of turrets and hulls is tricky. I wish there were a way to make it such that you can define a manufacturing project "Assemble tank" that takes 1 hull and up to 2 weapons and makes a tank, without having to define every possible combinations one by one, with associated assembly and dismantling. I would be easy enough to program (if only I knew C++...) and diminish the required modding work significantly.

Offline HelmetHair

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #137 on: November 07, 2014, 09:02:16 pm »
Okay.

Offline TaxxiDriver

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #138 on: November 07, 2014, 11:17:57 pm »
I do use your craft's mod but modified so that even gauss cannons can be useful. At that time I had an interceptor and an obstructor, and got very lucky so all of 12 avalanche missiles hit the ship  8) I wasn't expecting that.

I also deliberately extended the overall research time and changed the weapon hierarchy to standard-gauss-de-laser-e-plasma(modified the stats heavily, too...). So I was only holding gauss rifles (60 damage) in February. You can start researching laser weapon after you've got a live engineer and researched gauss weapon. I could have done that but just wanted to test all the weapons, and anyway to research laser rifle I have to research gauss rifle before that. I have to say the gauss weapons look very cool and I'm very satisfied with them  8) Also I nerfted the cyberdisc's HE resistance to 0.8 (and the remarkable thing I want to mention is that it was still a damn horrible monster, I'm serious).

Yeah, it was a hard mission and 2 scouts and about 4 squads died on the mission (it was the first mission I used the ship so I didn't know the feature of the ship and about half of them died on the first turn, so I just reloaded it  ::)). Drawing every reaction fires using scouts and using HE packs let me survive the harsh conditions. I think the loot was incredibly profitable (around 4 million?  ;D)

I do like the side door feature but especially on large and very large ships, on superhuman difficulty, due to the increased number of aliens, the cases those were useful were significantly less than the cases those were rather harmful in my experience. Anyway if the front door is the only gate then scout drones or tank can draw some fires so Skyranger was actually more safe, ironically. But I also liked it since I don't have to pay the damn monthly payment, of course! I think I just have to copy the skyranger file and create a new ship that can be similary manufactured and it would be OK  :)

BTW is automatic door not possible? It would be REALLY REALLY REALLY lovely if those open spaces are replaced with automatic doors...

Oh, I forgot to mention this, but the grenade launcher's buckshot ammo still seems to be a problem for me. I think the previous remedy was only temporary  :( I think it's just because my laptop is not that good so never mind that, though.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 11:24:19 pm by TaxxiDriver »

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #139 on: November 08, 2014, 03:40:41 am »
Your tweaking the craft and infantry weapons intrigues me. Would you mind sharing your modified rulesets?

I get what you're trying to do with the infantry weapons (delaying progress). I have an expansion mod planned to do that (just no time to do it right now). But in the end, no matter if you can research lasers alongside gauss or after them, the investment in researching both remains the same. You are likely to finish both lines later, but will gain some items faster. In this case, I really like how you get the heavy laser + gauss pistol, then both rifles (gauss sniper is really good, regular laser rifles are too). How do you justify lasers coming up later? They are not really an alien tech either.

As for the craft weapons, gauss cannons make good support weapons. Send your toughest crafts first (probably armed with lasers to be able to engage from further and disengage easier if severely damaged), then follow up with crafts with gauss cannons since they have higher dps. Down the UFO faster and suffer less damage overall. I don't know if they need tweaking (although I tend not to use them much because I am too lazy to keep an eye on ammo).

Automatic doors are available in the lightning terrain I think, but I think they would look stupid mixed with the skyranger tiles. Otherwise, I agree with you that they would be awesome to use (even if you have to spend TUs to open the doors, which wouldn't be that great).

I could make it so that the 3rd and 4th soldiers start at the side doors, allowing the 1 tile scout drones to deploy from there to soak up some reaction fire. Do you guys think that would be an improvement? I don't use scout drones (I think they're much too fast and useful for 1999 robots), but I am about to use dogs and I think deploying them from the side doors could be cool. Hum.. interesting opportunity.. I'll devise a new deployment order for those guys we can look into it.

Regarding the buckshot, it is really computer intensive to fire 20 rounds at once over a great distance. It has crashed my game before too and now I stay away from it. It does sort of work at short ranges though. Does it crash even at short ranges for you?

Offline TaxxiDriver

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #140 on: November 08, 2014, 02:25:00 pm »
Well, here are some of my modified rulesets heavily based on several different mods (thanks, everyone!) and some relevant information (I'm using the excel file to organize things: just adding things when I have some free time  :D). I'm just messing with a lot of different rulesets and testing them so don't expect any quality  ::)

I've modified a lot of different things and trying to rebalance everything as I play the game so I don't think explaing all of them are useful (anyway, what I want is Your mod's development  :)))

(1) I thought about two different approaches about weapon technology (since anyway I didn't want to throw out the Gauss weapons). First, giving them different traits so that they can be both useful even at later games. Second, setting up a general hierarchy. Actually, both approaches can be fulfilled at the same time. The difference comes from the weight one wants to put between them. I decided to put more weight into the second part, but I find no reason putting more into the first part is not equally viable.

(2) For the justification, well we always can find sound reasons to back up things, you know  ::) I justify every mods when they can bring fun and challenge, simple that is. Technically, as I said before, I'm modifying the whole structure so that everything can go well with each other. For example, I'm going to increase the AP and HE resistance of later aliens so that the effectiveness of standard issues and Gauss weapons will dwindle as time passes by. It is really nothing but an option depending on my previous decision. So if you want to put more emphasis on the diversity of weapons, you might want to also diversify the armor types of aliens so that each weapon can make some voice even later on. Here comes the variety of mods  8)

(3) For the craft and craft weaopns, I think I need more experience about UFO battles. The hot potato is of course the avalanche. Due to its long range, I really didn't feel any reason to build a more durable craft. I'm going to change it drastically, but now I just need more experience and observations  :)

Hope it helps.

P.S. The buckshot ammo sometimes works and sometimes not. I guess it might be related with the range as you've said.

Offline BBHood217

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #141 on: November 08, 2014, 03:06:02 pm »
@BBHood217: I'll try to get v1.03 out to you soon.

No no no, not to me.  To us ;)

Also, turning does not actually trigger reaction fire.  If one turns around to move, that'll definitely get them shot; but turning alone shouldn't cause reaction fire.

Offline TaxxiDriver

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.02
« Reply #142 on: November 08, 2014, 03:17:34 pm »
Also, turning does not actually trigger reaction fire.  If one turns around to move, that'll definitely get them shot; but turning alone shouldn't cause reaction fire.

I think I mistakenly regarded kneeling as turing around  :P Thanks for the info.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03
« Reply #143 on: November 11, 2014, 10:37:53 pm »
Version 1.03 is now ready! Providing you with:

New Modules:
- Attack Dogs: Dioxine's original Attack Dog, now with an improved Armoured Attack Dog variant, with more transport capability. Currently, both "hands" of the dogs are taken, preventing it from using weapons (in Nightly version). Once I figure out how to make it work, this mod will include the "Dog Warning System" (ie a motion scanner for dogs).

Tweaks:
- Pistols now have a ~20 tiles aim shot range, after which they suffer from drop off in accuracy. No more pistol snipers!
- Shotgun and Sniper Rifle modded weapons and ammunition now require the XCom Armoury Expanded mod. (ie if you don't want to use shotguns and sniper weapons, turning off the XCom Armoury Expanded will also disable Alloy Ammo for Shotguns and Sniper Rifles, Gauss Sniper Rifles, etc.)
- Tanks are now ordered by weapon, followed by their ammunition. This should make it easier to navigate. Pre-assembled cannon and rocket tanks are once again available for purchase.
- Allow Tank Side/Rear/Under Armour has been decreased. All side now gain the same % of armour compared to the starting tank.
- The Skywarden and Skyguardian now have deployment schemes allowing your troops to face their nearest exit. Please make sure to disembark the crafts in a safely manner. ;)

Bug fixes:
- Alien Reproduction Disassembly no longer should crash the game.
- Mind Probe Disassembly is now properly written.
- Vanilla tank manufacturing projects are no longer available.
- Plasma Hovertank Assembly and Dismantling are now available.
- Repairing tank wrecks now properly produces a tank hull instead of crashing the game.

Coming up next:
- XAE Spec Tanks: Specialized tanks for either close or long range support. Assembly of tanks with two turrets weapons will now be possible. Close range support variants will come with a smoke launcher and a main weapon with higher rate of fire. Long range support variants have higher firepower and a defensive weapon.

The XCom Armoury Expanded, v1.03:
Part1
Part2
Part3

The triple download remains, since I want to thoroughly test things before posting to the mod portal.

Please let me know what you think of the different tiers of weaponry. Are there some clear winning weapons? Ones you never use? How do you arm your squads?

I personally tend to go with defined roles:
- 4 scouts, with laser pistols or rifles, some grenades, motion scanners
- 2 snipers, with gauss sniper rifles and laser pistols
- 2 rocketeers, with rocket launchers, 3x large rockets, 1x Guided Missile and gauss pistol
- 4 breachers, with 1x gauss pistol + 1x Laser Storm Pistol (later plasma caster + plasma pistol)
- 2-4 support troopers, with Grenade Launchers, Laser Sniper Rifles, Heavy Gauss/Laser, Laser Blasters and/or Gauss Launchers, depending on the mission and tech levels.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 06:39:28 pm by Arthanor »

Offline BBHood217

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2014, 09:14:52 am »
Uhh, I think you forgot a couple of WAV files.  Namely:
Resources/Doge/DogeAttack.wav
Resources/Doge/DogeDeath.wav

very error :(

Edit: Solved it by getting the WAVs from the original mod.  Now everything's running smoothly... so far.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 09:22:04 am by BBHood217 »

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2014, 06:22:37 pm »
hahaha *facepalm*

Indeed, I forgot to change the paths and provide the files. Worked for me since I used to use Dioxine's Mod. Stupid. Always something sneaking through!

Sorry! I'm glad you managed to make it work though! I've updated the download now.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 06:38:39 pm by Arthanor »

Offline BBHood217

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03
« Reply #146 on: November 15, 2014, 02:07:31 pm »
Just bringing up a few things:

- Am I imagining things, or does it take too long to research the Reinforced Shotgun?
- I have to research STR_XAE_UNLOCK and STR_GAUSS_ENABLED.  At least they only need 1 scientist each.
- I see options to repair armors, except for the Personal Armor, Power Suit, and Flying Suit.  Is repairing armors even a thing yet?
- I have the UFOpaedia entry for Armored Attack Dogs before I've researched Personal Armor to be able to make them.
- I thought you've already disabled the dog's inventory and empty hand.  Or is it because I'm not using a nightly?

Offline XCOMFan419

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03
« Reply #147 on: November 15, 2014, 04:15:33 pm »
Repairing armours is very much a thing. I have it for every playthrough. I think you just have to set corpses to recover: yes and name them, then set the manufacturing rules. It's a much more convenient way to play XCOM, than rebuilding every single armour you lose. Especially when it comes to mid-game and soldiers are dropping like flies in personal armour. (And before you ask, yes I put them in cover and stuff but they seem to always find a way to get flanked/shot from behind cover)

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03
« Reply #148 on: November 15, 2014, 05:23:55 pm »
Oh.. Well well..

- you're not imagining. The reinforced shotgun takes a really long time. It is currently as provided earlier in the thread and I have not gotten around to working on it. Honestly, until I figure out a way to further delay research to warrant another weapon tier for alloy weapons, I don't think I'll look more into it. The XAE is modular, if you don't like a module don't use it. I currently don't use this one but wanted to provide it since it was shared earlier.

- did you start a fresh game with the mod? I know you have to research them if you activate the mods midgame, but I thought they wouldn't show if you start a fresh game. They cost 0, so should be really fast to clear up. Will look into them (at the very least give them a name if they have to show up).

- repairing armors is indeed very much a thing. The vanilla armors are taken care of by the grav armor mod, which I strongly recommend to use with the XAE. I have noticed a few issues with it with nightlies though, so it will eventually be integrated.

- eh.. Always forget about the UFOPaedia

- the empty hand is disabled if you use nightlies for the 2 weapon HWPs. Essentially it is filled with exactly the same weapon but no picture. In 1.0, you can only define one weapon so it is impossible to block the hand. The inventory is intended to be available: dogs can carry stuff. The first one has a strength of 2 so can really only carry light stuff. The armored vest comes with straps and pockets so the dog can carry a big more.

I have also noticed that non-weapon items go in the backpack instead of the hand, making the doggy senses motion detector entirely useless as a fixed "weapon": it is stuck in the backpack. I made a hack that works for testing, but it's a bit ugly (and wouldn't work in 1.0 either).

Offline BBHood217

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Re: [Crafts][Weapons] XCom Armoury Expanded - v1.03
« Reply #149 on: November 15, 2014, 06:13:52 pm »
It seems I can also get damaged armors at the end of combat from unconscious (not dead) soldiers, basically duplicating the armors after I repair them.  I'm sure this is already well-known, though.

I did indeed start a fresh game with the mod.  STR_XAE_UNLOCK and STR_GAUSS_ENABLED were still there along with the three starting research topics.

Another thing about dogs.  They seem to take up a lot of storage space.