Melee AI

[Rascal]

Hello fellow commanders!

I've been playing this mod for a couple days and I love it so far. Some things that puzzled me originally I either figured out with time, or read about on the wiki/forums.

I still have a few questions though, and the most glaring one is melee AI. Most of the time when I engage non-shooting enemies, they don't charge to attack, but rather wander aimlessly within visual range. In my recent mission I stopped even bothering to shoot. Just set AI speed and bullet speed to max, and constantly end turn while the agents train their reactions.

While free reactions training sounds nice, something tells me that these encounters were not supposed to be so trivial. I read somewhere that "sneaky AI" mod can hinder meelee creatures in OXC, but there's no such mod in XCF, is there?

On a separate note, is there a discord server dedicated to XCF? I don't see it being discussed much in X-Com or OXC servers.

[Mrvex]

Ah yes, creatures and their shoddy perception.

Yes, that is why is that, alot of creatures have really shitty eyesight (or non at all) when compared to Humans so you can pepper them with lead with impunity.
Alot of them have "psi sense" which could be interpreted as them being able to smell or sense in some way your troops.
If i look (UFO pedia) at the standard spider, it has psi sense of 15, so its spotting distance is 15 titles if they turn in your direction. Human troops can see way beyond that distance and with things like blackops rifles you can easily shoot across the map via aimed shot.

Alot of creatures have this and the whole gameplay around them is based around your troops maintaining distance while picking them off one by one, ocassionally retreating if they get too close. And creatures really hit hard, hell, something like a Werewolf can destroy your tank if he gets in melee. And high numbers can be problem too. It kinda sucks if your craft lands in a middle of a city with +33 scorpions scattered in every building so its impossible to tear them to pieces during your own turn and you need to use reaction fire.

There are few creatures with ranged attack so dont get too comfy, but they are rare or their damage can be countered with non-end game armor.

Use creature missions to train your troops, thats the purpose i use it for since beyond helicopter craft it has become impossible to lose.
And when you get flying suits, then its just a training exercise while your troops can shoot them with impunity.

Edit: There is an option for sneaky AI in advanced options, but i cannot fathom maintaining my sanity with it. It can be infuriating hunting one thing in a jungle that doesnt even try to hide.

[Empiro]

It would be nice if the game switched things up a bit now and then. For example, I'd love to see zombies swarm your position if you shoot a gun. It would make such missions a lot more exciting.

I don't think the game supports that kind of behavior though.

[Solarius Scorch]

Yes, that is why is that, alot of creatures have really shitty eyesight (or non at all) when compared to Humans so you can pepper them with lead with impunity.
Alot of them have "psi sense" which could be interpreted as them being able to smell or sense in some way your troops.
If i look (UFO pedia) at the standard spider, it has psi sense of 15, so its spotting distance is 15 titles if they turn in your direction. Human troops can see way beyond that distance and with things like blackops rifles you can easily shoot across the map via aimed shot.

This is all 100% false and very misleading.

Yes, a lot of animal units have the "psi sense" to simulate special perception abilities (like "tremorsense" in DnD), and it's usually not very long range. However, they can also still see normally, and for the standard distance (same as humans). There are exceptions, but most enemies see just fine, period.

The reason why the AI is sometimes hesitant to attack is because it's in its code to be cautious. It can only be controlled partially by me (basically giving them higher aggression and manipulating attack speed), but it's not a bug, it's how the AI "thinks". Monsters are often too wary to just run at you if they're too far away, and there's not much that can be done about it. Well, technically I could give them the Leeroy Jenkins mode, which causes them to ignore their own safety, but in most cases it doesn't seem appropriate.

[Mrvex]

This is all 100% false and very misleading.

Yes, a lot of animal units have the "psi sense" to simulate special perception abilities (like "tremorsense" in DnD), and it's usually not very long range. However, they can also still see normally, and for the standard distance (same as humans). There are exceptions, but most enemies see just fine, period.

The reason why the AI is sometimes hesitant to attack is because it's in its code to be cautious. It can only be controlled partially by me (basically giving them higher aggression and manipulating attack speed), but it's not a bug, it's how the AI "thinks". Monsters are often too wary to just run at you if they're too far away, and there's not much that can be done about it. Well, technically I could give them the Leeroy Jenkins mode, which causes them to ignore their own safety, but in most cases it doesn't seem appropriate.

Well that explains alot.
And i wouldnt mind if monsters in this case were really after blood with some balancing to decrease their time units to compensate for the fact that the whole map will go after your men the moment they are spotted in large number.

[Solarius Scorch]

I'd do that if I could... But why would you cut their time units? That would make them way less eager to charge you, as they would fail to reach their target more often.

[Mrvex]

I'd do that if I could... But why would you cut their time units? That would make them way less eager to charge you, as they would fail to reach their target more often.

In my head i pictured it that animals and other melee things would try to close the gap in one or two turns, giving you a time window to CC them or mow them down or to relocate. To promote more mobile playstyle. And because of all melee things charging you in large number, lesser TU to reduce the threat of a singular creatures if they do reach your men, while large number of them is still as dangerous.

[Hadriex]

Hearing how the ai works gives me an idea for a cool enemy.

Make something with stealth like ninjas, give them max vision range so they can see you across the map, and make them them slow moving. Then set them to Leeroy Jenkins (no self preservation) so they always beeline the players.

There your troops are, they're trying to face and reaction fire in every direction as enemies just appear all around you swarming, after your blood.

-Edit- One more idea.

Giving a melee enemy a short-range attack with only 1 ammo. For example a spider that can throw a web 4-5 tiles (causing time unit and possibly morale damage) but then would have to close in for the bite.

[Rascal]

Glad to know it's not a bug. Thanks for the explanation!

[Solarius Scorch]

@Hadriex: Well, there are some stealthy monsters like this, but I went very light on this concept, because in the end you'd probably have to hunt them anyway (at least on some missions), which is not much fun if you can't spot the bugger. (And then on turn 41 you suddenly die because it charged you, and you are long past carefulness by this point.)

[Hadriex]

That's what surprised me about the leeroy jenkins charge suicidally at the players option. It make hunting them a non issue if you could set their vision to seeing across the entire map and just charging straight at you every turn.

But I agree on hunting inisible units. Ninja hunts are the worst

[Solarius Scorch]

Well, the Leeroy feature just isn't reliable enough for this specific application. If a better option appears at any point, I'll be happy to come back to this!

[Doc]

Leeroy for zombies?

[Solarius Scorch]

With today's changes to the Leeroy Jenkins, I believe things have improved.

[Gazonik]

With Sneaky AI enabled, you have a very stupid melee AI. Most of the melee enemies don't even approach my agents. It would be cool if ranged units worked with the Sneaky AI parameter, and melee units without it. 
ps. this is google translation