aliens

Author Topic: Alien Embassies  (Read 3112 times)

Offline EmoNewtype

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Alien Embassies
« on: June 03, 2020, 05:15:31 pm »
I recently progressed to the point of decrypting the Alien Key and raiding one of the 3 alien embassies set up in my file, but a few weeks later the aliens set up another in a different country. I only found 3 ways to gain entry to an alien embassy on the wiki, each one looked like it was single-use. Is there a way to deal with 4 or more alien embassies? Are the aliens even supposed to set up more than 3?

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2020, 10:48:00 pm »
Is there a way to deal with 4 or more alien embassies?
no
Are the aliens even supposed to set up more than 3?
they can.

Offline anothrgamer1234

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2020, 10:57:43 pm »
nothey can.
If so, there should be some repeatable method to get keys or some other way of dealing with that.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2020, 04:12:15 pm »
If so, there should be some repeatable method to get keys or some other way of dealing with that.

There were 0 methods in the original game. (you could destroy the alien base, but not get the country back.) So it's still more lenient.

There are many reasons why Alien Embassies shouldn't be removable with no limits, mostly because X-Com is not a political organization and has absolutely no way of controlling if countries ally themselves with aliens or not. I shat bricks to come up with ways to allow it in some very special circumstances which are still a big stretch.

Offline anothrgamer1234

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 06:22:41 pm »
There were 0 methods in the original game. (you could destroy the alien base, but not get the country back.) So it's still more lenient.

There are many reasons why Alien Embassies shouldn't be removable with no limits, mostly because X-Com is not a political organization and has absolutely no way of controlling if countries ally themselves with aliens or not. I shat bricks to come up with ways to allow it in some very special circumstances which are still a big stretch.

I did not realize that, my mistake.

I recall that you said you were going to do something along those lines in the future involving ADVENT though- is that something different?

Offline EmoNewtype

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2020, 08:28:02 pm »
There were 0 methods in the original game. (you could destroy the alien base, but not get the country back.) So it's still more lenient.

There are many reasons why Alien Embassies shouldn't be removable with no limits...

Wait, does this mean that it is possible to get rid of the extra embassies, as long as I'm ok with not getting the country back? I was mostly concerned with embassies clogging up the mission list with endless hybrid clinics moreso than I was with council funding, so If that is the case then problem solved.

Offline Thermite

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2020, 08:40:09 pm »
because X-Com is not a political organization
You should review he council's chain of command ufopedia entry then...

Offline justaround

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2020, 12:17:12 am »
There were 0 methods in the original game. (you could destroy the alien base, but not get the country back.) So it's still more lenient.

Perhaps there could be a chance to acquire some key randomly from the Council if one is doing a good job? Even if XCOM cannot put direct and public political pressure on various countries, some of the more sympathetic to the cause Council members certainly should have a way.

Also, yes, "Council's Power Chain" entry probably needs adjustment. It's slightly weird in general that X-Com is considered 'political' faction when everything suggests it's a black ops organisation detached from politics and utilized for a brutal, secret war, even if to both detriment and benefit of various Council members.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2020, 02:51:31 pm »
I recall that you said you were going to do something along those lines in the future involving ADVENT though- is that something different?

Well, there's an idea Finnik had, where not terminating a cult before 1999 leads to an additional arc which gives you an extra key, as a counter to the mechanics where not terminating a cult by that time generates an automatic retaliation (and therefore embassy).

It's nothing more than an idea at this point, though.

Wait, does this mean that it is possible to get rid of the extra embassies, as long as I'm ok with not getting the country back? I was mostly concerned with embassies clogging up the mission list with endless hybrid clinics moreso than I was with council funding, so If that is the case then problem solved.

That would be ideal, but unfortunately cannot be done.

Perhaps there could be a chance to acquire some key randomly from the Council if one is doing a good job? Even if XCOM cannot put direct and public political pressure on various countries, some of the more sympathetic to the cause Council members certainly should have a way.

It's not inconceivable, but still a bit of a stretch, as the Council doesn't need X-Com to bring a country back to heel - they just need to pass a law. The problem is that the anti-alien part of the Council (the X-Com initiative backers) cannot do so unilaterally, so they basically wage a secret war against the other side using X-Com and other organizations.

It would be plausible enough, but I'd rather see the keys as very special rewards, not simply given by their Council friends. If there would be a long and difficult arc to get there, then why not.

Also, yes, "Council's Power Chain" entry probably needs adjustment. It's slightly weird in general that X-Com is considered 'political' faction when everything suggests it's a black ops organisation detached from politics and utilized for a brutal, secret war, even if to both detriment and benefit of various Council members.

I don't understand this argument - what you described is 100% political. How can a black ops/terrorist organization be anything else than a political organization? This article looks 100% correct to me.

Offline justaround

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 05:08:44 pm »
It would be plausible enough, but I'd rather see the keys as very special rewards, not simply given by their Council friends. If there would be a long and difficult arc to get there, then why not.
Perhaps a random, tricky mission then? "A an armed convoy of one of the alien-allied countries is transporting goods as well as access key to the alien embassy in the area. You have a possibility to intercept it but be aware - it is defended by regular human military merely following its orders and you will be penalized for any casualties" for example, where hostile defenders are well, alien-tech armed military whom you have to disable non-lethally or pay a hefty price of standing with the council/region on top of losing some points for stealing the cargo of the convoy (simply negative point values for killing your enemies would do).

I don't understand this argument - what you described is 100% political. How can a black ops/terrorist organization be anything else than a political organization? This article looks 100% correct to me.
Ah, you see, the differentiation is as follows - usually, by "political organisation" one understands groups that operate publicly, gathering personnel and making a push toward certain ideology or established interests of said political groups. Black ops is off-the-books, hush hush operations which while often utilized to further certain political agenda but that's merely as a (perhaps intended but still) side effect of their direct action, which usually means eradication of opposing forces, sabotage, illegal acquisition of data or material.

The issue is that otherwise you can claim that any and every group and organisation associated with the Council is political as it furthers Council's agenda, even if it's local hot dog stand furthering said agenda by keeping some Council member fed with his favorite hotdogs before he goes to work.

Plus, hey, you wrote that:
There are many reasons why Alien Embassies shouldn't be removable with no limits, mostly because X-Com is not a political organization
which is why people bring that ufopedia entry as X-Com is described as political there.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2020, 10:36:23 pm »
Perhaps a random, tricky mission then? "A an armed convoy of one of the alien-allied countries is transporting goods as well as access key to the alien embassy in the area. You have a possibility to intercept it but be aware - it is defended by regular human military merely following its orders and you will be penalized for any casualties" for example, where hostile defenders are well, alien-tech armed military whom you have to disable non-lethally or pay a hefty price of standing with the council/region on top of losing some points for stealing the cargo of the convoy (simply negative point values for killing your enemies would do).

Tricky, yes. Unfortunately, I think also frustrating to the point of blueballing the player... Piratez does something similar (the Eurosyndicate Deal missions), but it's a "reward" for dealing with the wrong people, not completely random.

But more importantly, I can't see how doing this mission would cause a political change in the relevant country. Maybe elaborate?

Ah, you see, the differentiation is as follows - usually, by "political organisation" one understands groups that operate publicly, gathering personnel and making a push toward certain ideology or established interests of said political groups. Black ops is off-the-books, hush hush operations which while often utilized to further certain political agenda but that's merely as a (perhaps intended but still) side effect of their direct action, which usually means eradication of opposing forces, sabotage, illegal acquisition of data or material.

Well, the article clearly describes what constitute a "political" group. It's not like it's misleading or anything.

Also, I am not aware of any clear definition of a political group's nature IRL. It can be anything, from a leading party to a terrorist cell.

The issue is that otherwise you can claim that any and every group and organisation associated with the Council is political as it furthers Council's agenda, even if it's local hot dog stand furthering said agenda by keeping some Council member fed with his favorite hotdogs before he goes to work.

Well it's not wrong, but again, the article clearly distinguishes between "political" (meaning a part of the political struggle) and "technical" (meaning institutions which are necessary for the proper functioning of the planet and usually left alone).

Plus, hey, you wrote that:which is why people bring that ufopedia entry as X-Com is described as political there.

These meanings of the world "political" are unrelated, as these are different contexts.

Offline Thermite

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2020, 02:23:54 am »
I don't understand this argument - what you described is 100% political. How can a black ops/terrorist organization be anything else than a political organization? This article looks 100% correct to me.

But you literally just said it wasn't a political organization...

There are many reasons why Alien Embassies shouldn't be removable with no limits, mostly because X-Com is not a political organization and has absolutely no way of controlling if countries ally themselves with aliens or not. I shat bricks to come up with ways to allow it in some very special circumstances which are still a big stretch.

And also:

Maybe add a hard late undercover mission on the lines of "Alien ambassador kidnapping" where there are several heavily armed hybrids, some ambassador hybrids and maybe even an alien or brainer. And, among one of them, there is a embassy key. The appearance of such missions could be tweaked to be very rare and they could be made available only after one alien embassy was already taken care of.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2020, 03:04:19 pm »
But you literally just said it wasn't a political organization...

It is a political organization, as stated in the Pedia. But it does not have any influence on the Council policies, because it does not have any political power!

Honestly, I don't think it's that hard...

And also:

Maybe add a hard late undercover mission on the lines of "Alien ambassador kidnapping" where there are several heavily armed hybrids, some ambassador hybrids and maybe even an alien or brainer. And, among one of them, there is a embassy key. The appearance of such missions could be tweaked to be very rare and they could be made available only after one alien embassy was already taken care of.

That wouldn't be enough to justify why, say, Brazil would suddenly denounce its political ties with the aliens.

Offline Thermite

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2020, 07:52:29 pm »
Honestly, I don't think it's that hard...

That wouldn't be enough to justify why, say, Brazil would suddenly denounce its political ties with the aliens.

It isn't a mission that would make the country go back into the fold, but that would only give away the key for you to be able to access the embassy and the country would only forfeit it's relationship with the aliens after the embassy was destroyed. Which would make the mission more of a heist than anything...

Maybe add some HWP on the fold too for the heist mission. Some points loss could also be added because the embassy key was stolen, since XCom would be interfering directly into council's politics...

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Alien Embassies
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2020, 02:21:49 pm »
It isn't a mission that would make the country go back into the fold, but that would only give away the key for you to be able to access the embassy and the country would only forfeit it's relationship with the aliens after the embassy was destroyed. Which would make the mission more of a heist than anything...

Honestly, it's like talking to a brick wall.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK DOES THAT KEY REPRESENTS? A literal fucking key to some backdoor in a government building which will give you UNLIMITED POWER over the country's secret foreign policy? Really, bro?