Author Topic: Terrain Pack considerations  (Read 2612 times)

Offline Hobbes

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Re: Terrain Pack considerations
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2019, 09:36:56 pm »
    • A primary the source of this problem is a combination of poor communication and rudeness, most of which can be safely blamed on one specific user of Hobbes's work. But not all of it, unfortunately. Hobbes's reaction was and continues to be over the top and in poor form. And I don't really see anything changing if, hypothetically, the modder was polite, argued for donations being harmless or perhaps proposing to share them, etc.
    If the donations are so harmless, why they didn't remove them instead? I gave the option and he refused.

    Why doesn't he remove them now? The whole issue could be solved quickly. Instead, they choose continuing with donations.

    Who's being exactly over the top and in poor form?

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    AFAICT Hobbes would still have gone into 'I'll take my toys and go home' mode.


    Did I leave the site and delete everything and said f*** u* to everyone?

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    Given that he's a long-standing member of the community, a moderator and someone who occasionally tries to set standards, that's not a good precedent. SupSuper recently threatened to ban some users for relatively minor squabbling (aka the 'don't be a jerk' rule). What's going on here is full-blown drama initiated by a moderator.

    Except for moderating the section of the site dealing with Area 51, I'm not a moderator anywhere else. So complaints about moderation should be taken elsewhere, because they don't belong here.

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    • to change the behaviour of others (this has, obviously, failed or at least backfired to a significant degree),
    • to influence others' opinion of oneself (that's a net loss, if this thread is any indication),
    • to make yourself feel good about your work and its usage (TP is being stripped down and getting less used in the future, so ...).

    Your opinion, and I disagree in all points. For all I know, you know zip about me, except for what's been happening lately. So consider that before you even try to analyze me.

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    What is the problem with donations, exactly? I'm also generally ill-disposed towards modders making money from their work, but for a completely practical reason: it encourages 'copyrighting' mods, hoarding and not sharing your work, cliques, drama and squabbling, all of which significantly damage any modding scene. Witness e.g. Bethesda's 'paid Skyrim mods' debacle. What was Hobbes's solution to donations? Diving head-first into the same kind of behaviour.

    I have no knowledge of this situation and I don't need to.

    Someone had behavior towards me that my personal values say it's abusive, by deciding to ask for donations after they've used my work and never asking permission for it. I told them to stop. They refused. Consequences followed immediately on my part until the abusive behavior stops.

    That's how I am in real life towards any kind of abusive behavior, towards me or others. I agree with you that I can be direct and harsh, but I also can be very diplomatic. I tried diplomacy first. It failed.

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    The only truly positive effect of such 'enforcement' is preventing people from claiming someone else's work as their own. That was never the issue here.

    And what exactly do you think it means when someone decides to take your work and use it for commercial proposes?

    That person is claiming it as its own to make money![/list][/list]
    « Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 09:57:13 pm by Hobbes »

    Offline Mathel

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    Re: Terrain Pack considerations
    « Reply #76 on: November 28, 2019, 10:11:07 pm »
    OK, I am tired of this argument repetition.
    I will sum up what I learned from this thread.

    Hobbes created the Terrain Pack (and Area51).
    Many modders used the TP for assets.
    Some of them asked for donations.
    Hobbes disliked this and, after an argument, decided to give an ultimatum to one of them.
    "Either you will stop asking for donations, or I will disallow you from using TP!"
    This person decided to keep asking for donations.
    Hobbes decreed that nobody is allowed to use have used TP.
    Very few people liked this.

    My reasons for not liking it: It punishes not just the offenders, but all who would play or make mods using the TP, whether there are donations involved or not.
                                                It sets a bad precedence for problem solutions, one that could cause collapse of megamods.

    We argued, and could not come to an agreement on the following questions:
    1)"Is asking for donations commercial use?"
    2)"How large percentage has to be original for the whole work to be considered original?"
    3)"Whose fault the whole thing was?"
    4)"Does the modder on this platform (OXC(E)) have the right to revoke usage?"

    I will now state my opinions on said questions, and that will be it.
    1)"Not really. It is close, but not quite."
    2)"50% of work, or an original idea."
    3)"Hobbes. Holding hostages, even if they are your children is never a good idea."
    4)"As there is no specific licence, yes. But doing so should be done carefully."

    Offline Kjotleik

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    Re: Terrain Pack considerations
    « Reply #77 on: November 28, 2019, 10:57:22 pm »
    I seem to have missed all the drama here.

    But, there is one thing that seems to have been overlooked in the discussion.

    It can be argued that if an original work has been released to the public, and the author has given permission for it to be used in other mods, it should be considered as a work under Public Domain.

    I don't know the exact details regarding the release/publishing of the Terrain Pack, but if no other license was mentioned - and it was given the impression that it was free to use - then it is more likely than not that it would fall under Public Domain. I believe a court would take into account the INTENTION on the day of release when deciding if it can come under PD or not, if it ever went to court. But I don't really know. If any of you have a case to show, I'd be interested in reading about it.

    And, as a matter of law (this is not an opinion, but a fact) once released under Public Domain, it cannot be removed from Public Domain.

    In that light - IF the Terrain Pack can be considered PD -  Hobbes doesn't have the right to deny/restrict its use in other mods. He can ask for it not to be used. But nobody is required to follow that wish.

    Of course, as polite members of the modding community, we all credit each other for things we take. But the fact is; that is probably not required by law.


    Offline SupSuper

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    Re: Terrain Pack considerations
    « Reply #78 on: November 29, 2019, 08:48:33 am »
    I'm closing this thread since everyone has made up their minds and this arguing is going nowhere. Diplomacy is more likely once everyone's cooled down. Here's my last post on this topic if you missed it.

    TL;DR: Hobbes was unsatisfied with how some modders were reusing his work and decided to disallow it until further notice. If you've got any further questions or issues with this, take them with him. I'm sure he's not beyond being amicable if you come peacefully.

    I wanna address this though:

    • A primary the source of this problem is a combination of poor communication and rudeness, most of which can be safely blamed on one specific user of Hobbes's work. But not all of it, unfortunately. Hobbes's reaction was and continues to be over the top and in poor form. And I don't really see anything changing if, hypothetically, the modder was polite, argued for donations being harmless or perhaps proposing to share them, etc. AFAICT Hobbes would still have gone into 'I'll take my toys and go home' mode. Given that he's a long-standing member of the community, a moderator and someone who occasionally tries to set standards, that's not a good precedent. SupSuper recently threatened to ban some users for relatively minor squabbling (aka the 'don't be a jerk' rule). What's going on here is full-blown drama initiated by a moderator. This is not good for the community as a whole.

    • Hobbes is not a global moderator or has any official association to the OpenXcom team. He's a modder like any other and we let him have his own subforum to rule over. Everyone's words are their own so take any implications of "speaking for everyone" with a grain of salt. Of course as anyone's popularity grows, they have more "influence" over the rest, but that's the price you pay for building your content on top of one another. I expect people to respect each other, not be paragons of virtue. If the most famous modders were setting the example, then hoo, hoo boy. Wow. :P

      Anyways we've already had private talks with affected parties and will be keeping an eye on how this develops. But I don't see everyone making mutant pirate mods just because that's the most popular commodity, so spare me the "slippery slope" arguments until it happens.
    • We rarely moderate on our own volition. 99% of the time I show up around here is because people have been reporting posts or PMing me. Most concerns are aired in private, naturally. So what to you might've been "minor quibbling" was a lot more bothersome to a lot more people. Whether it's just two people fighting each other or full-on community drama, it sets a bad atmosphere and disrupts discussions. You'd stop hanging around your favorite bar if there kept being loud drunken arguments in the corner making everyone uncomfortable, wouldn't you? Only option left is to call security.

      Likewise, the rules aren't there to be enforced with an iron grip. They're there so if someone keeps being a troublemaker, they can't say we didn't warn them. We read every report and have always been open to feedback, so if anyone thinks we're not doing enough or doing too much moderating, let us know. We maintain your anonymity and you can always contact us privately if necessary.
    • This is a public forum. "To ban or not to ban" is the only threat I got, either temporary or permanent, and can be revoked at any time. As far as internet punishments go, it's pretty harmless. You can still use the website, play OpenXcom freely, engage with the community or go call me bad names somewhere else. Just not here. This is all I got and all I can do is kick you out.

      This forum has been running for nearly 10 years and we've only had two bans (besides spammers), they were pretty extenuating circumstances, and they've never argued against it. So I think we're doing alright, but you're free to disagree.