LOFT TEMPLATES

[luke83]

"The thing is modders here didn't hold their horses and want "modding tools" for non extendible original data format, which is stated to be "not changed by even one bit" (because of copyright things)."
Most of these tool have been around for years and are designed for personal home use,  i cant think of any modding tool that i use that has been made by a active developer for Openxcom so i cant see any Copyright issues. Also any MOD found uploaded on my Mod site is for people who own the game to try out, Like Openxcom i dont supply The entire game files , i only provide the 1 or 2 files needed to try that mod you still need a copy of UFO defence to use, the is the same as any other MOD out there for other games.

 Game should always support original format even if you do create any New format as well ( UFO2000 support would be a nice first step), if we are going to reinvent every format we should just plan to move towards 3D game also.

All this original post was about is How can i create some new  Loft template to  better represent new items, the original game great to play, i understand its limitations but you know what, it is still fun after all these years, if i want something shiny and new i will XCOM:ENEMY UNKNOWN ( this will be the only game i will buy all year).

[Volutar]

i cant think of any modding tool that i use, has been made by a active developer for Openxcom so i cant see any Copyright issues

You cannot modify any of original files. Otherwise you violate copyrights.
Yes, there are lot of modifications of original files, but all of them are violative. The thing is copyright holder doesn't care on this old project. Nevertheless this is violation.

Game should always support original format even if you do create any New format as well

Agreed. And I wasn't saying something like "we should get rid of old format support". Those "classic" loaders have to be used until 1.0.

if we are going to reinvent every format we should just plan to move towards 3D game also.

1. No matter are we going or not - old formats are non editable and are not extendable. Thus in order to keep them intact, we have to invent our own which will be mod-friendly.
2. Not necessary to go towards 3D. Classic isometric view is fine and with bitmap sprites could look much more crisper than 3D. Though, combination of different weapon, armor, appearence and animation of units will be a pain, and hybrid engine with 3D units in bitmap surroundings is preferable (example - Sacred 1).

How can i create some new  Loft template to  better represent new items

The answer is - this is allowed only for new tiles. If you modify any classic tiles in that way, what everyone is used to - will be ruined (break expecations), it simply alters gameplay, and possibly violate copyrights. BTW, my proposal of making pathfinder better with inventing new tile "markers" also violates and breaks things.

So, adding new tilesets (with absolutely new tiles) should be done using NEW tile format (which isn't invented yet). I believe, noone is allowed to modify/improve old tiles (not just because of copyrights, but in sake of keeping gameplay classic). Instead, artists/modders have to re-create them from scratch, and replicate maps using those new (or better to make new maps).

[pmprog]

You cannot modify any of original files. Otherwise you violate copyrights.
Yes, there are lot of modifications of original files, but all of them are violative. The thing is copyright holder doesn't care on this old project. Nevertheless this is violation

I don't think that's quite right. Copyright covers distribution of works, as long as you don't distribute the files, you're fine.

However, some try and add a license that prevents you from modifying files. However, this is practically unenforcable, especially on content made before the "connected age" where internet was commonplace, as nobody can actually tell if you've modified them or not, unless you distribute.

People wrote tools and patches to get around the distribution method.


Anyway...
I remember seeing Daiky's 3D world viewer way back, shame that wasn't implemented as the default tactical engine - could have always fixed the camera to the old-school isometric view 

[luke83]

Anyway...
I remember seeing Daiky's 3D world viewer way back, shame that wasn't implemented as the default tactical engine - could have always fixed the camera to the old-school isometric view 

Yes this would be a cool option , i am learning blender  ATM,i could most likely make some ok looking items blocks for it until the Skilled people show up , right now i am just learning how to moddle in Blender, havent ot gone near the Cool things yet.

[Volutar]

And how blender can help with loft templates or new MCD format, huh?

[luke83]

i meant IF the 3d engine was ever getting setup for a 3d version of xcom, From memory daiky just used the LOFT to generate a 3d world. I am aware nothing is possible with the current format.

FYI: Bomblokes toolset now handles creating new  LOFT templates , i have not tried it yet .

[Volutar]

I will gladly start my tool for new tile format which will be able to handle better pathfinding, larger resolution and better loft representation. But only for NEW format.

[Volutar]

Actually I would like to see tile format which will get 4 sprites (90 degrees rotated sprites) with one loft object. So it will be possible to use ONE tile with different angles instead of different tiles, even saving some space with re-using same loft, and map rotation also may become possible.

[luke83]

You really want a new format type , why not  propose one? I mean do the work, create what you think will work and then offer to community . I am not against a New system, but the OLD system needs to always be a option ( Even if we cant mix and match between the 2 sets). Also then you need tools that normal people ( like me) can use to be able to make new maps.

 I don't pretend to know what i am talking about , but wouldn't it be easier to just import a 3d object and have set rotation for the viewing of that object than to create 4 separate sprites ?

[Volutar]

1. I haven't heard of such a request from main developers, and without one, I have a risk of creating something noone need.
2. Old MCD format should stay intact, though it will be a "weak point" for making something better if you try to mix them. I think old tiles eventually should be replaced with new (similar or almost same).
3. Map format is another thing. Old maps can be used with new tiles, though, if map editor won't be updated, you won't be able to see what you get. And,sure, eventually map editor should be updated or created totally another.

[luke83]

I love the xcom games , and its a shame my young friends wont try them as there to pixel-llated for there own tastes.

   Why could there not be a separate more 3d version of the battlescape being worked on quietly  - Main development team focus on Supsupers goal of recreation of original game and a new 3d friendly Battlescape version getting worked on as a long term project ( as it takes time to make models etc). There would be no reason to mix and match , one version would be to honour the Real games , new version would be to take it to the new generations.  Keep the flexibility that the current project is working towards but do a different battle scape engine.

 Honestly i want both and as you may have noticed , i am willing to help where my limited skills allow.

[Volutar]

So I can treat this as "noone except for you will need it". Okay.
P.S.: I don't want 3d battlescape engine. And currently there's no such thing as "openxcom engine". There's the SDL with number of weird "shading" functions which make battlescape screen render rate at 4fps, and battlescape code, which uses SDL directly, without particular engine or order. Simple non structured hardcoding.

[luke83]

"So I can treat this as "noone except for you will need it". Okay."

I am just saying - you always bring up new map formats - why not plan something out to achieve it. Its got nothing to do with " I NEED it"  , i am just a gamer trying to support a Project with what limited skills i have , i don't understand 99% of the Jargon you programmer people talk about. It just sounds like you want it Really Really Bad.

 I  dont want to sidetrack this project at all , I am happy sticking to original formats as it fine for my Gaming Pleasures. You dont seem happy with alot of choices the Dev team here make ( judging by your comments on some forums) so why not show us how smart you are ( and i do think you are smart) and propose a PLAN.

 I can see a demand for a traditional recreation of x-com in a NEW shiny display - Fraxis remake will be awesome but i am scared it wont have the same feel and longevity.

At the end of the day , i am just a gamer who misses the FEEL of these old game

[Volutar]

I didn't see much of choices. Mostly fit into formula "we'll take what was done before, and try to get it together, and hope it work somehow".
With this kind of approach modding is quite hard task to do.

[SupSuper]

I think luke's got a point. No matter how hard we try, we lead developers can't please everyone. It's a physical impossibility. We gotta pick a focus and stick with it, projects only work through dictatorship, not committee.

However a lot of people take this as "oh if The Almighty Lead Developers don't agree / comment / care, then forget about it!". Why? We're just human beings like everyone else. Part of the reason I made the project open-source was so that everyone could take advantage of it. We have all of OpenXcom to worry about, but you guys are totally free to try out anything! Pursue all your ideas! Find out what works and what doesn't! Go nuts! Develop your own versions of OpenXcom that satisfy you if need be! New file formats! 3D engines! Whatever! You don't need the consenting word of The Almighty Lead Developers at every turn, if enough people in the community care about it, hell if you care about, maybe it's worth pursing. Maybe you'll prove us wrong and in the end we'll just integrate it in and you'll get to feel that more awesome.

Just look at OpenTTD, the standard official version just supports all the standard TTD features (with improvements), but there's a forum full of patches of everyone's crazy ideas in practice without any word from the developers. The community is happy, the developers are happy, everyone's happy.


Regarding new file formats, I think Daishiva was interested in them too, even willing to develop tools for them, so you might have some extra support there.