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Author Topic: Why not instant grenades?  (Read 4069 times)

Offline BBHood217

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Why not instant grenades?
« on: June 05, 2017, 11:07:29 am »
This mod recommends them to be off, but I don't see why.  I don't pile several grenades onto one spot like the readme says, I use instant grenades to get that smoke going or that cover blown up right now immediately.

Unless there's some advanced grenade that only works correctly if it's not instant...

Offline karadoc

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 12:15:22 pm »
It's for balance reasons. Instant grenades are _far_ more powerful than timed (end-of-turn) grenades. xPiratez includes both instant and timed grenades, and is balanced accordingly. So if you enable the instant grenades option, you mess up the balance. It will make grenades far more powerful than they were intended, and it will make the game's built-in instant grenades next to worthless in comparison.

If you don't care about the balance of grenades, go ahead and use the option; but just know that you'll be playing an easier version of the game, and you'll be using tactics which were intended to be difficult / impossible.

Offline BBHood217

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 12:49:54 pm »
Ohh, some grenades are already instant in-game.  Okay, that makes sense now; it'd be like turning on Improved Ground Tanks when the mod has separate regular and alloy tanks.

Then perhaps in a future version, the readme could instead mention how there are both normal and instant grenades when recommending Instant Grenades to be off.  That'd make for a more compelling argument than "explosions don't destroy other grenades".
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 12:52:21 pm by BBHood217 »

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 02:44:15 pm »
Honestly it's not so much the explosives that really break the balance, it's the smoke.  Being able to on-demand limit the AI's line of sight to your gals is powerful, and the AI is not built to counter it in the slightest.  The easiest way to see this is to toss a flare on a human enemy at night and stay in the darkness; the unit will likely just circle the same few tiles, not knowing what to do. Instant smoke grenades also counter what little advantage the enemy has in reaction fire.  There are a few weapons that have instant smoke, but they are few and far between because of how well it neuters what little challenge the AI itself presents.

Offline desert

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2017, 07:43:23 pm »
Balance reasoning is clear, but the sad thing is that it makes timed grenades generally too cumbersome to deploy, unless you have a particular gal badly misequipped for the battle.

Offline sinisteragent

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2017, 09:09:45 pm »
Timed grenades can generally be thrown a lot further, and have a wider range of functions.

Offline Stoddard

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 09:49:56 pm »
Balance reasoning is clear, but the sad thing is that it makes timed grenades generally too cumbersome to deploy,

Just preprime them all and enjoy the fireworks if a gal gets stunned. Gives a bit more edge to the intensity of battles.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 10:49:23 pm »
One other consideration:  Grenade Relay tactics are usable if grenades don't instantly explode.  This is built into the overall balance of the game.  Want to take down that Red Barn for the Goblin Zaxx Mission?  Use a couple chains to get some satchel charges or crates of violence into place and you are good to go.

Offline karadoc

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2017, 12:42:33 pm »
Yeah, the old hot-potato grenade trick is still viable, and still just as ridiculous as ever. It's such a gamey thing to do. I mean, it works fine in terms of balance and strategy; but it's completely bogus in terms of realism.

"Here, I primed the grenade for zero and dropped it at your feet. Now you throw it to Indiana Seasnail, and she'll throw it at the enemies."

--

As an aside, it's worth noting that weapons like the mortar are in the same balance-space as grenades, in that they are long range arcing trajectory explosives.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 12:44:08 pm by karadoc »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2017, 08:49:24 pm »
I have never used hot potato tactics in Piratez, except with High Explosives. For any smaller grenades it just doesn't pay off - gals are strong enough to throw, dangerous enemies are too tough for small grenades, and also there is a plethora of other options.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2017, 09:45:18 pm »
Just one observation on the Grenade relay for more than just HE Packs (which is certainly a great tried and true tactic), recent nerfs in grenade accuracy have made the previous cross map throws much more dicey.  At 40% accuracy a 30 tile throw can have interesting if unintended results.  I think one outworking of this is that throwing training is occurring much more slowly than in recent builds.  Long range hits are harder to come by (even with bows etc).  Thus having a relay that puts the final toss at only a 10 tile range may be much more likely to have an effect.  All of this said, the TU cost associated with the relay is part of the balance.  It takes 14 to pick up and 20+ to throw, so you are burning about 30 - 40% TUs.  With small starting crews, (6-8) I never use the tactic, myself anymore.  It really works with teams of 14 or higher in my opinion, but the fact that it is still there to the player increases the array of tactical approaches and I think, enhances the game play overall. 

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2017, 12:26:24 am »
Yeah, I'm in the same boat as Ivan - with the grenade accuracy nerf, I just don't hot-potato at all anymore, or generally use grenades in my loadouts except for a girl or two who needs to explicitly train throwing... but then they often get better training with a whip or spear type weapon.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Why not instant grenades?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 04:48:55 pm »
This mod recommends them to be off, but I don't see why.

Because it's a cheat. Explosive instant grenades is a moderately broken function, instant smoke grenades are completely broken.

Then perhaps in a future version, the readme could instead mention how there are both normal and instant grenades when recommending Instant Grenades to be off.  That'd make for a more compelling argument than "explosions don't destroy other grenades".

It's not an argument. It's an information. Readme doesn't argue, it informs. It cannot however inform about everything.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 04:51:44 pm by Dioxine »