Separate "Prime Grenade" into "Set Delay" and "Pull Pin"

[Nerva]

One thing that frustrates me about X-COM is how many TU's are required to use grenades.   Yes, options have been added for pre-priming grenades at the start of a mission, but this adds the danger of downed soldiers blowing up themselves and those nearby.   It seems to me a good option for the game (or mod) would be to separate the "Prime Grenade" action into two separate actions -- "Set Delay" and "Pull Pin".   Every grenade would have a default delay of 0 set (unless modified in the pre-battle screen), and the "Set Delay" action would bring up the "Prime Grenade" interface to modify the delay setting for a grenade in the soldier's hand.   "Pull Pin" would then set the fuse to start if the grenade is thrown of dropped.   The TU's for "Pull Pin" would be relatively short, allowing a soldier to attack with a grenade in a (realistically) shorter period of time.   The combo of Set Delay + Pull Pin would be about the same as Prime Grenade by itself.   Another thing to consider is making the Set Delay take longer if the other hand is not empty.

[Hobbes]

"Pull Pin" would then set the fuse to start if the grenade is thrown of dropped.   The TU's for "Pull Pin" would be relatively short, allowing a soldier to attack with a grenade in a (realistically) shorter period of time.   The combo of Set Delay + Pull Pin would be about the same as Prime Grenade by itself.   Another thing to consider is making the Set Delay take longer if the other hand is not empty.

Do you use the Grenade Spam tactic? Because reducing the number of TUs required to prime a grenade would be just great for people who abuse that tactic.

[ohartenstein23]

Grenades, and especially HE packs or alien grenades, are really damn good as they are.  As in, you can easily do an entire campaign with mostly HE packs.  There has to be some downside to using them, similar to the time it takes to accurately fire/reload the rocket launcher.  If you really don't want to spend time priming during a mission, just pre-prime.  Also, adding another action to using a grenade just sounds like extra clicking tedium between me and *BOOM*.

[Nerva]

I should have thought to mention, I would NOT give HE packs the same "pull pin" feature that grenades should have.   HE packs should always require spending extra time for priming prior to throwing or dropping -- they are not grenades.

And no, I don't use the "Grenade Spam tactic" -- I don't even know what that is, although I suspect it has something to do with using grenade relays.   My whole reason for posting this topic was because I don't use grenades much, because the priming step is so time-consuming.   I've found it works better just to have everyone carry a rocket launcher around in their backpack.

[Hobbes]

And no, I don't use the "Grenade Spam tactic" -- I don't even know what that is, although I suspect it has something to do with using grenade relays.   My whole reason for posting this topic was because I don't use grenades much, because the priming step is so time-consuming.   I've found it works better just to have everyone carry a rocket launcher around in their backpack.

It's even better than grenade relays, IMHO, since I play with instant explosions (which make relays impossible). Essentially, first turn is to throw a smoke grenade to the end of the Skyranger ramp, then everyone else uses the initial turn to prime grenades. Then, when you disembark, you just use the HWP to scout and the soldiers spam any aliens with grenades. Works best on the initial months when your rookies can't hit the side of a barn with their rifles and against the weaker aliens.

Carrying a Rocket Launcher with a single rocket and discarding the launcher afterwards is also a nice tactic but against mind control aliens, or soldiers panicking from deaths it can seriously backfire on you, plus soldiers with strength below 30 might be struggling to carry the launcher + additional weapon. But once I get veterans with decent firing/strength/psi defense I definitely get a few to pack single shot rocket launchers to clear terrain (until there's enough Elerium to be able to mass use Blaster Launchers)

As a last opinion: explosives in the original game are slightly too powerful. In TFTD they changed the terrain settings to make it more resistant to withstand explosions and give units some protection from overabuse, and in the case of Terror missions making it impossible to bring torpedo launchers. So IMHO, any change that increases the usefulness of explosives runs a risk of unbalancing the game towards the player (although it would also make aliens to use grenades more)

[Nerva]

I find it strange that more people don't object to the current system that encourages players to have all their soldiers carry primed grenades from the moment the mission starts -- in real life, you would never do something that reckless -- if a single soldier goes down, he kills the guys near him, and possibly starts a domino effect of explosions that kills the entire squad.

Also, why would anyone in real life set a delay on a smoke grenade?   I would think smoke grenades should only have "pull pin" with no "set delay" (or "prime grenade") option at all.

Currently, it takes 50% TU's to prime a grenade and 25% TU's to throw it -- I would make "Pull Pin" take 10% and "Set Delay" take 40% -- this would allow a decent soldier to grab two grenades from their shoulder, pull their pins, and throw them, each turn, and not have to rely on pre-priming.

[hellrazor]

usually instant grenades encourages spammimg grenades.
the normal setting encourages another behaviour, using grenades to clear terrain, especially alien grenades or he packs.

grenade relay is really good to get what you need into the hands of a soldier who can throw.
i personnally have a wide set of grenades on each soldier. so i am set up for all situations.
and having the chance to adapt on the battlefield.

rocket launchers are in vanilla the option to instantly clear things, like terrain obstructions.
tftdnhad increased terrain armor values since sonic pulsers did 130 damage instead of 90 as alien grenades in normal ufo did.

and using tftd armor settings for terrain in ufo brings in my opinion a imbalance.
sure there needs to be a difference between a wooden fence, a stone wall and a beton wall.
but simply using tftd armor values here is no solution.
it gets rather frustrating when you use he packs and can clear obstacles with them.

pre priming grenades is a good things, even thou i only use it for smoke grenades, which i usually would prime by hand on turn one which i usually skip before debarking my troops.

grenade relay basically is setting a timer but not pulling the pen, then throwing to fellow soldier which pulls the pen and throws it to the enemy.

 but that is only my opinion.

[Hobbes]

I find it strange that more people don't object to the current system that encourages players to have all their soldiers carry primed grenades from the moment the mission starts -- in real life, you would never do something that reckless -- if a single soldier goes down, he kills the guys near him, and possibly starts a domino effect of explosions that kills the entire squad.

Well, you don't have to overuse primed grenades during game play if you're concerned about realistic behavior. As a player the choice is yours whether you want to use this tactic.

The 'in real life' argument comes over and over regarding a number of design decisions, both regarding the original game and mods, but in my opinion it usually isn't the most important one - there are features that can be added to increase realism, and thus player immersion and engagement, but to judge a video game's features by its realism sounds somewhat contradictory.

[Solarius Scorch]

It isn't exactly about realism, it's about quality of simulation. Unlike abstract games - like Mortal Kombat, Starcraft, or Monopoly - X-Com is a simulation game, which means it tries to recreate actual, real combat, within a certain scope. It doesn't necessarily mean it's realistic, but it is supposed to fulfil certain expectations that stem from how real life works. So for example, if the best tactic in the game was using knives, then it wouldn't be a good tactical simulation, because it's supposed to reflect (within given parameters) how combat looks like in real life.

Now, about which mechanics is best at simulating actual combat? This isn't an easy question... But I believe it is at least the right question.