Shotgun Rebalance Test Mod

[ohartenstein23]

With Meridian's latest OXCE+ update pulling in my re-write of the pellet spread calculation, shotgun-type weapons are much more configurable now.  I've written a short mod to make use of the new values for spread for all weapons with multiple pellets.  If you want to use the new shotgun parameters, you can find the mod here.

Please post feedback on testing the new code here, so we can get Dioxine more information for balancing the weapons later.

[Dioxine]

Did some quick preliminary tests with Heavy Shotguns on Ratlings. Effectiveness is simply terryfying, with 100% one-shot-kills within 15-tile range. It doesn't help against armored guys, but creates a valuable niche vs. early game opponents in crowded settings. In the future, we will divine some general guidelines concerning averaged spread and choke values for typical pellet weapons in Piratez setting and gameplay model. In the meantime, we'll be using your numbers and see how it works out.

[ohartenstein23]

I have a spreadsheet I used to calculate pellet spread accuracy for each shotgun, and I guess heavy shotgun ended up being more favored oops.  I wanted it to be a little terrifying, the thought that a mook with a heavy shotgun is around the corner.

Maybe the accuracy should be brought down on some of the tighter spread guns?  I used accuracy to inform some of the spread decisions, so things like the heavy, blackops, and super shotguns may be pretty OP now.  With proper spread patterns, maybe the accuracy can be treated more like a powerful rifle?  A little less likely to hit, but when it does...

Edit: Link to my spreadsheet

[Dioxine]

Oh, I like how powerful they are, and how that is threatening to your crew as well. After all, the real problem are armored enemies, and shotguns can't handle them no matter the spread. Also I want shotguns to be a viable choice for these 45 Firing Acc poor things, so the high base acc is a must. If anything, we can increase spread by 25-50% across the board (more carnage, less precision than IRL), but it's far too early to make such decisions.

[ohartenstein23]

I do like the fact that 40-45 armor is a milestone to the player against these weapons (chainmail and tac armor were important parts of my testing), but even sustained fire by the more powerful end of the early loot shotguns got through - acid rounds are definitely going to need tuning down, as the blunderbuss could suddenly find use unintentionally as a precision anti-armor tool.

[Dioxine]

Acid and especially incendiary pellets should have wider spreads than normal pellets, that's for sure. Also blunderbuss w/acid shells used vs. armor is fully intentional.

[ohartenstein23]

I was thinking more about the tight spread making it too long-ranged and precise, I love the acid blunderbuss as the short-range surprise! against personal/carapace and sometimes even powered armor.

[Dioxine]

After consulting your spreadsheet, I have some preliminary thoughts on the relative balance of weapons (and proposed target numbers for pellet acc.).
Too good:
- Super Shotgun (85)
- Kustom Blunderbuss (65)
- Blunderbuss (50)
Too shitty:
- CAWS (80)

EDIT: also proposed Spreads for basic types of shotgun ammo (assuming it's good quality):
- Lo-count, precise (Hv. shotgun slugs, Niner/EP, Death Blossom/Acid, UAC Rifle): 10-20
- Standard: 25-ish (as now, no need to change)
- Acid: 40
- Incendiary: 65

[ohartenstein23]

The super shotgun did seem a little too good in my testing   My goal with the numbers is to try to have shotgunSpread do most of the work for the pellet accuracy, and let the choke values differentiate between weapons that share ammunition types.  So it'll probably be decreased spread on blunderbuss, kustom, and super, and increase the choke on the kustom since it shares the ammo - new numbers are in the table.  When I have the chance, I'll add in the chem/incendiary munitions to take a look at those numbers as well.

[Dioxine]

Some more testing. This time with DB Shotgun and Domestic Shotgun, 3 Ratmen Rodeos & 1 Church Raid in a new campaign. Domestic Shotgun is very reliable and basically never fails. DB Shotgun is like, 3x better, despite ammo limits. I was able to snipe enemies, even tough and somewhat armored (Church Priest) from 20-25 tiles away, using Aimed Shots, and a 70 Firing gal. Still never failed to deliver a kill shot on the first try. Same goes for enemies - one of my gals was instakilled by a Ratman Brigand with DB shotgun, but that was only to be expected - he was shooting from no more than 5-6 tiles away.

[Arthanor]

Yeah, shotguns are getting a bit crazy. With good gals and stat buffing armor, the starting accuracy is so good that even losing some doesn't make the pellet spread. I have gals in assassin armor using super shotguns starting with 260% to hit and landing all pellets on target at significant ranges.

Yes, accuracy should allow a great shooter to hit with the middle of the cone far away, but it should not control spread. Spread is simple gun dependent mechanics. Unless it's based on voodoo skill and believing in it makes it better, like 40k orks, I think spread should not be tied to firing accuracy, just a given gun based deviation around the initial impact point (with itself is calculated using accuracy, of course).

So sort of a hybrid model:
- spread around original hit like in your model
- spread pretty much independent of skill like in the old one

[nrafield]

I never thought shotguns were bad at their purpose in first place. Now this is gonna be scary.

[ohartenstein23]

@Arthanor:  Spread is currently not dependent on firing accuracy; the super shotgun just happens to have a ridiculously high pellet accuracy (very low spread defined in the ruleset).  You'll find even if you give the noobiest of your shooters a super shotgun, the spread will still be incredibly tight.

Yes, accuracy should allow a great shooter to hit with the middle of the cone far away, but it should not control spread. Spread is simple gun dependent mechanics. Unless it's based on voodoo skill and believing in it makes it better, like 40k orks, I think spread should not be tied to firing accuracy, just a given gun based deviation around the initial impact point (with itself is calculated using accuracy, of course).

This is exactly how the new calculation works.

- spread pretty much independent of skill like in the old one

The problem with the old model was that it was dependent on firing accuracy, and that it had this ridiculous penalty to each additional pellet so that the spread was always like shooting with 0 accuracy.

I tried to balance the shotguns like IRL scatterguns, as Dioxine mentioned - hitting all the pellets in a man-sized target at longer ranges is normal with modern shotguns, but this ends up being too powerful with the damage numbers balance for the huge spread of the original model.  To paraphrase Dioxine further, we need more movie shotgun-like weapons, where the spread is 2-3 times what you'd expect from IRL shotguns, but still not quite like taking auto shots with 0% accuracy.

[Arthanor]

Ah! My bad, I misunderstood what you did then. I need to go back to starting shotguns.

Seems to work as intended! Well done

[ohartenstein23]

No problem   And I'm glad that they're as terrifying as this right now, especially facing down enemies with shotguns in the early game, but my favorites such as the  super shotgun and probably all of the other non-starting shotguns need to be toned down because of exactly the setup you're using, making them basically sniping weapons.