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Author Topic: Dealing with Mercs ?  (Read 11843 times)

Offline AncientSion

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Dealing with Mercs ?
« on: April 23, 2016, 02:11:43 pm »
Using the combined of my ships, i took down a Merc Heavy Gunship after it lifted off (i couldnt deal with it while it was landed, so i was hoping shooting it down would kill enough Mercs so i could).
I see a bunch of Commandos and Shock Troopers which have armour values ranging from 40 (Commandos) to 80/100 Shock Troopers. I still use conventional weapons 09/2601.
Is it actually possible to handle these guys, or should i just ignore them since they are some kind of fail-safe to establish enemy bases (mission was Secret Base) ?

Offline Rince Wind

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2016, 02:15:03 pm »
You are pirates, only attack what you can bring down. No need to kill everything in sight. I'd wait for better arms.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2016, 05:52:06 pm »
Indeed! You're not XCom defending the Earth at all cost anymore, you're a bunch of Piratez in it for fun and loot. If it looks like a hard and risky fight, get outta there!

That being said, it can be worth it to try to fight them if you do it carefully. Mercs have great reactions, so getting shot while advancing is quite likely. In my experience of previous versions, if you can sneak up on one, even starting melee weapons can deal with them provided you have a good strong gal using them. Catching a few mercenaries and a few of their weapons could get you some very useful tech. You can also use their own weapons against them, which should be better than your current ones, although they are not the most suited weapons either.

BUT, only do it if you can do it with acceptable costs ;)

Offline The Think Tank

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2016, 06:37:39 pm »
ac·cept·a·ble
/əkˈseptəb(ə)l/
adjective
1.
able to be agreed on; suitable.
"Losing 25 Gals was an acceptable loss for getting dem Gauss weapons."

Offline Boltgun

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2016, 08:59:00 pm »
You win against the mercs by fighting with honor.

This means taking them one by one with 5 gals from behind with lasguns on auto.

Be prepared for the long fight, stacking fatal wounds and flamer powered panic worked out for me.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2016, 09:03:45 pm by Boltgun »

Offline greattuna

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2016, 10:15:15 pm »
Retreat is always an option. If your mission goes pear-shaped, get in and fly away to live another day.

I once tried to take them on on mutant pogrom. It started with 3 tanks near ramp and 2 shock troopers under ramp, continued into merc throwing grenade near tile with gear, heavy gauss (including heavy gauss, of course) and missile fire which incapacitated my two bio suit gals (thankfully, they survived), and into swarms of remaining mercs (now clairvoyant) surrounding the ship after T20 (and second grenade into gear tile). I also managed to run out of HEALs, despite having small medi-kit on nearly every gal.

I won, but I'm not going to go against them on pogroms, not anymore.

How to fight? Bring out your heaviest weapons: portable lascannons, plasma guns, if any, mortars, high explosives, nukes, hammers, R-rifles... Don't spare anything if you want a victory.
They have tons of HP, have very good reaction, accuracy, everything, so be careful. Use cover liberally and try to go into melee if possible\when it guarantees a kill. Watch out for the skies, as commandos can fly. And remember: if it bleeds, we can kill it.
Tanks will go down in three LACC-WP shots, they're lesser of the problems with them. They do pack a punch though.

Offline AncientSion

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2016, 02:37:14 am »
I like how i write that im in the first year and use conventional weapons and people suggest using

portable lascannons, plasma guns, if any, mortars, high explosives, nukes, hammers, R-rifles..


amazing !

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2016, 02:40:59 am »
You do have an access to half of that from the start (Mortar, HE Pack, Hammer) :)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 02:42:27 am »
I like how i write that im in the first year and use conventional weapons and people suggest using

portable lascannons, plasma guns, if any, mortars, high explosives, nukes, hammers, R-rifles..


amazing !

Mortars, high explosives and hammers are starting weapons dude.
If they're not "conventional" enough for you, then I guess you'll have to help yourself.

Offline AncientSion

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 03:02:18 am »
Mh-Mh, okay. So there are battle tanks and commandos all around the map and i cant even leave my ship without being in a crossfire, yet im supposed to melee-hammer those guys, or fire my mortar from inside my landing craft...oooooookay.
I guess even giving RPGs to each of my guys wouldnt actually allow me to solve the mission without save scumming like a real boy.

Seriously, the only good suggestion was: just skip it and let them build their base.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 03:04:07 am by AncientSion »

Offline greattuna

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 03:12:05 am »
Mh-Mh, okay. So there are battle tanks and commandos all around the map and i cant even leave my ship without being in a crossfire, yet im supposed to melee-hammer those guys, or fire my mortar from inside my landing craft...oooooookay.
I guess even giving RPGs to each of my guys wouldnt actually allow me to solve the mission without save scumming like a real boy.


Yes. They're that hard on purpose. What else did you expect from guys who kill for money?
And besides...

Retreat is always an option.

Offline legionof1

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 06:23:07 am »
Sometimes you just get a bad spawn and should GTFO turn 1. Even my 6 year old game A-team nopes out when things suck sufficiently. Crossfires on the ramp from anything is bad news. IF your really willing to bull through best advice is smoke the ramp and pass a few rounds while the foes mill around with no vision then get out.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 04:05:49 pm »
Mh-Mh, okay. So there are battle tanks and commandos all around the map and i cant even leave my ship without being in a crossfire, yet im supposed to melee-hammer those guys, or fire my mortar from inside my landing craft...oooooookay.
I guess even giving RPGs to each of my guys wouldnt actually allow me to solve the mission without save scumming like a real boy.

Seriously, the only good suggestion was: just skip it and let them build their base.

Of course if you get a bad layout it's not going to work (unless you are willing to sacrifice a few scouts to initial reaction fire and willing to risk depending on smoke). Parrots have stupid high reactions too and might be able to fly away before getting shot at. This allows you to better know your surroundings and also to get the reaction shots directed away from the Bonny. Jumping down the hatch is also a good way to risk only one gal unless there are explosives involved.

You know what? The only advice I can give as a way to achieve specifically what you want is to go in your save and hack your gals so they have the TUS and reactions to win in such a bad setup. Because that seems to be what you want.

Most of the advice you got is on how to tackle mercs when you have a good starting layout. Because it makes no sense to try when you don't. And that's true for many factions. Academy pogrom with multiple cyberdiscs staring at you, mercs, etc. It's basic xcom. Don't blame people for not being able to give you advice on how to succeed when trying the impossible  (since I assume you don't want much casualties either, and winning against mercs from a bad setup with the wrong weapons and low casualties just won't happen).

So yeah, you got the best advice and realized it: get out and try again next time. Maybe then you'll have a good starting setup and might be able to make it work with the other advice you got from here.

I understand the frustration of dealing with mercs early (good thing you didn't try the early versions of Piratez, they were a lot more brutal), but calling people out for not giving you exactly the advice you are looking for when it doesn't exist and you should know it, that isn't a great way to get more advice later.

Offline ivandogovich

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Merc Pogrom Battle Report
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2016, 02:33:55 am »
I'm going to chime in here with a Battle Report on my first Merc Pogrom (May 13, 2602 {Early Second Year})

Caveats:
  I save scummed this battle. Yup. Reloaded once for a better landing zone (despaired too much of the urban map the first go) and then reloaded 4 times during the main battle... a couple times due to reaction fire wrecking someone I thought couldn't get spotted, and a couple times after doing a hmm.... "lets try this for science...".

My approach to this mission was to take it as a Laboratory setup to figure out what would work for me with these mercs, at my current tech.  I believe that I'm about solid midgame tech, though I'm not positive.  I did use the wiki however up to date it is, to laboriously re-equip all the gals for the mission.  Meridian's in-game Right Click and Middle Clicks for Bootypedia Articles was tremendous!! (Often, I'd page through and pick up 4 items or so first, then check the info.  This saved trying to find them again in the 7 pages of ground inventory). 

Once I got the lab working, (i.e. equipped and fighting the battle) I had an epiphany, that gave me a secondary objective: Interrogations.  I'm still missing Interrogations, and I realized that the Interrogation line dropped from Merc Captain down to Merc Engineers.  If i could snatch two Merc Engineers, I could knockout my requirements for this Tech Tree Gate.  I'll admit, this did make me a bit more prone to justify the save scumming, but also much more motivated to hammer through the entire mission without doing just a snatch and grab.

Friendly Mission Planning:


MISSION:
Merc Pogrom in Central Asia.

TIME
Evening dusk with standard visibility but shadowing effects at range.

TERRAIN
Mixed Urban (Dawn City?), with one large recreation facility with indoor pool, two large multi-story warehouse structures, and multiple smaller, garage type structures.
Bonny landed on the Northern Map edge fairly in the middle of the map.  Ramp faced South into the main section of the map, with Rec Building immediately to the West.

TROOPS
2 Parrots, 16 gals on the Bonny.  (This was my first drop in 98e, so color me surprised when the loading order was changed up with the birdies now at the back hatch!)

Armors: 
1 Guardian, 1 Harbinger for my doorgals (now out of place).
1 Assault for an Angel of Death, doing aerial scouting.
3 Stormys, for my Sniper gal.
1 Saviour for my Angel of Mercy.  Incredible TUs, Immense stun attack, and high capacity load out.
9 Revenants for my normal strikers.

Equipment:
After trying the first run, with majority Lasers (Heavy Laser, Hunting Laser, Advanced Lasgun), I did some comparisons, and came to the obvious conclusion that Plasmas Hit Harder. Alot Harder.  So, most of the gals were packing plasmas of some type or another, or some Really Heavy Ornance (Tornado Rocket Mortar, anyone? ;) .  That said, I skipped the baby nukes and the Dragons, due to the tendency for Dragons to bite back, and a mild desire to avoid excessive collatoral damage.

Reticulan Plasmas hit for 86! (did you know that???)  I figured these could hit, power through some armor, start chipping at health, and inflict wounds.  Mostly to the strikers.
Light Cannon with HEAT rounds hit for 85 damage, so I think I had 5 or 6 of these equipped.  Some to Snipers and some to strikers.
Two Assault Cannons from the early days, out fitted with Super-Conductive Cannonballs (78 plasma), and a grenade launcher with plasma rounds (90 concussive/plasma??) gave me some mobile indirect fire support.  A Tornado Rocket Mortar carried by my heavy (Harbinger) stayed close to the ramp and added 120 power HE for terrain clearing.
Plasma Subrifles (64 plasma)  gave the strikers something fast to sting with.
I dug out all my MAG Rockets, and passed them out to the snipers with Advanced Launchers, because with 200 piercing, even through resistances and armors, the would have to have some effect.
One Small Launcher, and One Shoulder launcher and about a dozen stun bombs (90) joined in for that chance that they could help us bag some VIPs.
Finally, the best piece of equipment toted was the Mind Probe we'd recovered recently.  The ability to probe from beyond LOS and through walls, basically locked one of my heavies down in the Bonny for the mission because the intel was more important than their tanking or firepower.

Enemy Situation:
SIZE:
31 enemy combatants.  Majority Merc Soldiers and Commandos.  The enemy's heavy forces consisted of 2 Battle Tanks and Two Merc Shock Troopers.  High Value Targets included 3 Engineers, and one Merc Captain.


ACTIVITY:
Enemy activity focused on terrorizing the local populace.  Combatants did engage friendly forces readily and with zero regard to collateral damage.  Multiple large explosions reduced sections of the city to rubble.

LOCATION:
Enemy forces were spread throughout the built up area. Merc commandos on the immediately on the roof next to the landing zone presented a challenge moving the snipers into position. Enemy command and control were generally located near their heavy forces in the center of the map.

UNIFORM:
The enemy wore a mix of Synth Mesh with high resistances to ballistic damage along with some very durable armor on Heavy units.

TACTICS:
Merc units targeted available civilian units then proceeded to destroy the town center.  Early loss of command and control may have resulted in the enemy losing focus and a poor reaction to our attacking forces.

EQUIPMENT:
Overall the enemy weapons were less dangerous than expected. Gauss pistols and muskets, and run of the mill laser rifles (Lasguns) were standard equipment.  Merc Commandos sported a huge boom gun,  and Shock Troopers a powerful melee attack.  A few of the engineers used PLASMA Rockets (200 pwr) in rocket launchers indiscriminately.  Battle tanks also fired powerful explosives in their main guns.

Results:
Successful techniques:
Initial contact consisted of a Merc Shock Trooper and a Battle Tank in view from the ramp.  Mortar fire, Super Conductive Cannonballs and some LC Heat rounds nullified that threat.  Liberal applications of Reticulan Plasma fire (2-4 per enemy troop) appeared to be effective.  Grenade Launchers with Plasma rounds appeared to assist softening up adversaries as well as reaching difficult areas.  MAG rockets never found a really good application, so their effectiveness is still undetermined.  Melee was very effective with the very first kill being a techblade to the back of a Merc Soldier.  Some strikers sported tech blades as well as one with an Electro Sword, and these appeared completely sufficient to deal with the standard combatants.  Stun bombs from the shoulder launcher and the small launcher were directed toward the HVTs, when possible, but initial intel probes seemed to show that they were not having an tremendous effect.  Zappers were fired once or twice, but again unknown effect.  Cattle prods were only used (but effectively) on enemy that had revived due to combat medical treatment in the prisoner collection area.  Saviour Suit Stun (58 Voodoo power for soldier) was effective in nabbing both Engineers once they had a bit of prior damage. Multiple enemy were discovered knocked out far after they would have been expected to bleed out, if they were a less robust race.  The Merc Captain was found in this state 6 turns after he had fallen (and presumed perished).  Measured doses of Rum allowed for prisoners to be stabilized and hauled back the extraction zone, before undergoing better treatment for their wounds  (Only had a few bottles of vodka carried and they went fast and many of the enemy had 5 or more wounds).  Mind probing HVTs and heavies allowed me to alter techniques if necessary.  This was by far the best investment in the mission. I wouldn't put it on a Heavy troop again, just someone who can stay put.


Unsuccessful Techniques.
Plasma Subrifles appeared to have little effect, but may have helped from time to time. (I'd guess 5-6 hits would be more standard for good damage with these weapons).
Laser weapons seem to lack the punch to do much beyond the armor.  MAG Rockets never really engaged on the Shocktroopers (their priority target) and HE seemed to account well for the tanks.  The one rocket that fired at a shock trooper missed. 

Final take away: a very tough mission, but definitely achievable at my current tech level.  It requires a completely different loadout than my current gauss/laser setup on troops.  I would not want to do it twice, and that was part of the reason for the save scumming.  Overall, an excellent learning experience for me and got me a much deeper understanding of my plasma and HEAT weapons.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 02:35:31 am by ivandogovich »

Offline legionof1

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Re: Dealing with Mercs ?
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2016, 05:10:09 am »
Plasma is defiantly the better option if you have it. But lasers can still manage and are exceptionally effective against the tanks who take 20% extra. Longbows also deserve a mention, 97 base damage is possible and is not reduced by resistances for most mercs.