Author Topic: [DONE] New experience award system / accuracy training system  (Read 8388 times)

Offline Arthanor

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2016, 02:24:55 am »
The "1st pellet gives xp" was implemented for shotguns, which have good accuracy and if every pellet counted, could grant the equivalent of 8 hits even though that was only one snap/aimed shot. Autoshots count hit for every shots, so miniguns and HMGs are really good for training (if you can hit anything with them multiple times...).

Doing a bit of research in the ruleset:
Flamethrower: Uses Firing, xpMode 9 = trains throwing 33% chance (I assume to reduce the training since autoshots have 8 shots so could yield lots of xp)
Grenade Launcher: Uses firing, xpMode 4 = trains firing (yay!)
Assault Cannon: Uses Firing, xpMode 4 = trains firing (yay!)

So it looks pretty good. I'd agree that a flamethrower is more of a gun than akin to throwing a rock.. but if "arc projection" is the skill represented by throwing (ie being able to tell how to fire a weapon on an arcing shot), then the grenade launcher and assault cannon should train it. As is, it is maybe not too consistent. It could be cool to see more of the xpMode 11, 50/50 throwing and firing, to represent learning about the arc and the aim, leaving only properly throw items (knives, ninja stars, grenades, molotovs and bombs) as training throwing 100% of the time. Even a bow is aimed similarly enough to a gun that I could see it training either.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 02:35:09 am by Arthanor »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2016, 03:08:16 pm »
I'm still a bit iffy on grenade launchers, flamers and assault cannons training throwing as the default (I can understand why, to save making two arcing lists, but it doesn't make sense). There's plenty of ways of training throwing now, so I don't really think bows need any more help.

It's quite silly to complain about bugs that exist only in your imagination; GLs and Cannons train Firing, not Throwing. However, I've changed flamethrowers to 33% train firing, since they use Firing for attack. It's indeed more sensible.

Also, no inconsistency, Arthanor. Throwing is the skill bow is using, so Throwing it trains, NOT firing. Let's not get distracted by the semantics of the word 'throwing'. It is one of 3 attack skills we have, we don't have any more to burn, and their irl semantic fields are not really that important; important is, what they represent in-game. IF everything was training everything, why would we need separate Throwing and Firing? We could add bows under Firing and be done with it, but IMO that would be really boring compared to how it's working now, as in "useless throwing skill is now important".

Offline Arthanor

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2016, 04:26:02 pm »
If you flip the flamethrower to training firing, then I think it all makes sense.

I was merely suggesting one way the use of both skills could be rationalized: Firing = proper aiming, Throwing = arcing shots. It is maybe less diverse (since it would have bows and other aimed arcing weapons train both firing and throwing), but it is a rationalization.

I understand that you prefer of more strongly divided way with weapons being either one or the other, and with the change to the flamethrower, I agree that works too. It just seemed odd before (and the defaults are probably what was confusing sambojin. Not everyone goes to dig in the ruleset when they have questions, and.. I guess not everyone asks questions when they have them, it's easy to just assume and criticize).

Offline Dioxine

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2016, 06:06:29 pm »
My definition for Throwing in Piratez would be, 'skill to use muscle-propelled weapons that usually, but not neccesarily, have arcing shots; a primitive alternative to Firing'. That's why it's used in some melee weapons, for instance. However I'm not sure about the Mortar. It uses Firing/2 + Throwing/2 but does to not conform to the above definition. I'd preferably use Firing/2 + Intelligence/2, but there is no such stat in XCom... Any suggestions?

Offline Arthanor

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2016, 06:48:07 pm »
Interesting challenge. The stats are very physical.. If not throwing:

I could see bravery, to represent the ability to keep your cool under fire/when your friends are under fire, communicate well to get the positions from spotters and then make the right calculations and minute adjustments to engage something you can't see.

Or reactions, which is a measure of your ability to act/react in combat to mean also an ability to think in combat.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2016, 07:01:32 pm »
Just to chime in:  I for one don't see a real issue with tying Throwing skill in general to "Arcing" weapons, but in terms of skill required as well as skill trained.  Its just a bit more abstracted from the "muscle powered tossing" Throwing sense.    I still think its nice to have the variation overall.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2016, 08:15:58 pm »
Neither do I, it's more of a matter of everything being consistent, and what definition to be consistent about. Now we have one which Dioxine has provided, and it is an easy one to make consistent with the flamethrower being fixed.

Offline bluberd

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2016, 01:47:29 pm »
My definition for Throwing in Piratez would be, 'skill to use muscle-propelled weapons that usually, but not neccesarily, have arcing shots; a primitive alternative to Firing'. That's why it's used in some melee weapons, for instance. However I'm not sure about the Mortar. It uses Firing/2 + Throwing/2 but does to not conform to the above definition. I'd preferably use Firing/2 + Intelligence/2, but there is no such stat in XCom... Any suggestions?

I would put mortar under throwing skill completely. I know it might seem strange, but look: mortar is available from the very start of the game, meaning you do not have very experienced gals. In the beggining of xcom I tend to buy a lot of soldiers, check their statistics, looking mainly for TU/firing/bravery/reactions in that order and then sack the crappy ones. Piratez adds melee somewhat in that equation but in general throwing is somewhat of a less useful skill. Obviously in the beggining your soldiers shoot like crap, so one dedicated soldier with high throwing skill is pretty usefull, but then when your other soldiers shoot better, you use less granades. In Piratez you have bows/blowpipes, so your dedicated throwing gal stays pretty useful somewhat longer, but when lasers/gauss are somewhat common I see no use for bow and dart pistols are better than blowpipes.
Dojo helps a lot with low throwing and in general I find throwing at the level of 50 to be enough for assault troops to safely use granades in combat situations, so not so much use for a dedicated thrower.
So in the mid game I see no use for high throwing skill. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no interesting throwing usage beside hellerium granades.

I know we could discuss logic behind every skill but we need to think of game balancing as well. You have set of just a few skills, let's make them useful. I've seen that issue multiple times with pen and paper RPG games, game balancing mechanics with character skills is tedious task

Also: If you really want to get into skill set for different weapons, quasi real life, logic and all, then light weapons like pistols might use also reaction (firing is aiming reaction is coordination of motor skills and perception); for example (firing+reaction)/2 - to reflect the fact of poor aim for non-shoulder weapons (takes way longer to aim) and the fact that in the combat situation there is no time to aim well with them. I know it is somewhat included in the accurancy of the pistols and the low TU cost, but the skill is somewhat different in real life to shoot for example dual hand mp5k and mk5 with a stock.
Same with throwing knifes - I know throwing is crucial, but with knifes you need to throw fast and flat and in combat there is no time to aim (I guess, I never used knife in a bar fight ;D).
Really heavy weapons might use (firing+throwing)/2 cause bipodded/tripodded heavy weapons, espacially at long distances have less in common with handheld firearms.
But then you are complicating the mechanics even more, you already need to calculate damage bonus and think which gal is the best to use specific weapon. Making the game mechanics more real-life means you need whole military chain of command to think of at every stage of the game - I know it is supposed to be mentally stimulating, but too much micromanagement is making players miserable.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 01:53:49 pm by bluberd »

Online legionof1

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2016, 02:49:00 pm »
I will disagree with throwing becoming useless midgame. The more advanced bows have excellent stat scaleing. A longbow can get 82 base dmg before outfits are considered. With amazon base becomes 87. Brute armor reaches 94 base. Future bows top out at 107 PLASMA dmg. Do not discount archer support or being able to use the archer gals to throw flares or smoke all the way across a map. All from the safety of the landing craft.

Oh and longbows are a mere 3 tiers deep in the tree from the start point. Future bows are not particularly deep either if you can manage a few merc captain captures. Oh and no special buildings for ammo production unlike comparable damage weapons.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 03:21:43 pm by legionof1 »

Offline yrizoud

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2016, 04:50:59 pm »
I think he means there is a "gap" mid-game when throwing becomes comparatively less interesting.
Dioxine takes care to put throwing weapons at different states of technology and power, but since there are considerably more firearms than throwing weapons, it is very likely that during a campaign there are moments when the available "throwing tech" stagnates, while better and better firearms become available.
IMO it's not an issue since throwing weapons keep unique advantages, and thus a mixed team is better than a specialized one.

Offline bluberd

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2016, 05:05:12 pm »
I will disagree with throwing becoming useless midgame. The more advanced bows have excellent stat scaleing. A longbow can get 82 base dmg before outfits are considered. With amazon base becomes 87. Brute armor reaches 94 base. Future bows top out at 107 PLASMA dmg. Do not discount archer support or being able to use the archer gals to throw flares or smoke all the way across a map. All from the safety of the landing craft.

aww, there you go, had no idea.
I used longbow for a quite a time, but at some point it stopped to be good and I have never seen plasma bow O_O. case is I have plenty plasma weapons in storage and cannot research them in any way.
When I get bigger transport the throwing gals will get in, but at 6-8 gals, throwers were not crucial as long as assaulters can throw granade somewhat accurate at 10-15 tiles.

Online legionof1

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2016, 05:25:00 pm »
Bow do suffer against heavily armored foes more then guns do because of the 60+ pierce and plasma dmg rule. A 60+ hit from those 2 types will always remove some armor even if they fail to do hp dmg.

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2018, 06:43:02 am »
Can you add more overrides? I wanted strength gains from using certain weapons (like melee weapons).

Example:
33 train strength
34 train strength x2
35 train strength 50%
36 train strength 33%
37 train strength and melee
38 train strength or melee (coinflip)
39 train strength and reactions
40 train strength or reactions (coinflip)

Then I also wanted some options higher than 50% chance:

41 train firing accuracy 67% chance
42 train throwing accuracy 67% chance
43 train melee 67% chance
44 train reactions 67% chance
45 train bravery 67% chance
46 train strength 67% chance
47 train psionic strength 67% chance
48 train psionic skill 67% chance

And some lopsided combos...

49 train firing accuracy or throwing accuracy (67/33)
50 train firing accuracy or throwing accuracy (33/67)
51 train melee or reactions (67/33)
52 train melee or reactions (33/67)
53 train melee or strength (67/33)
53 train melee or strength (33/67)
55 train melee or reactions or strength (33/33/33)
56 train psionic strength or psionic skill (67/33)
56 train psionic strength or psionic skill (33/67)

Offline Ethereal_Medic

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2018, 08:54:18 am »
I don't understand what those examples mean to be honest.
If you ramp up experience gain for stats any further, the purpose of recruiting warriors and veterans becomes pointless.
Those costly options for hiring troopers is meant to give you 'decent' and 'good' soldiers which require less to no further training to become awesome.

I guess there's a reason for non-trainable voodoo-power. Those with <30 V-Power either sit in the barracks or wear armor with +50% voodoo defence.
Training v-skill for those voodoo-wimps is still worth it and it does reduce the efficency of enemy panic-attacks.
It's not recommended to give them rocket-launchers, grenades and other mass-destruction tools.

Offline Meridian

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Re: New experience award system / accuracy training system
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2018, 09:47:50 am »
Can you add more overrides? I wanted strength gains from using certain weapons (like melee weapons).

Yankes added scripting possibility for experience gain, you can define all these options via a script.

Except for strength, which is not a primary skill and cannot be trained directly.