Author Topic: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated  (Read 22584 times)

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2015, 09:59:39 pm »
From my point, this looks as ridiculously, as the no-way-of-stopping-part. If they land and I land there as well, obliterating them completely, this mission totally shouldn't be a success for them. As for any other landing mission, I presume. Or does e. g. an alien abduction mission succeed, even you catch them in the act? Don't know about that.

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I agree, especially, when you find out later... I also noticed, that they »somehow« managed to get past my defenses, which I always found very suspicious. Now I know why they still succeeded in infiltration, even when I shot down every last one of them. Seems like there's no point in reacting to this supposedly »worst threat« (O-Tone of the Ufopaedia) to the X-com-Project, as you will not succeed anyways, no matter what you do. That kind of fools the player. It might not be a problem, if it comes down to loosing the game, or not. But it still feels quite bad.

Yeah, I think that even if it lands, unless they successfully take off, you should be able to thwart them with a ground assault.

I mean hell, a Leviathan attacking a Dreadnought one on one with dual Sonic Oscillators will be put out of commission for nearly a month, while a Manta will get annihilated; ground assaults should definitely be an option for stopping it.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2015, 08:50:21 pm »
No, it's not that my 'feelings are hurt', it's that it's a poor game mechanic because again, it completely disrespects player agency and prevents the player from having any say about whether or not an infiltration succeeds in a game that is all about outmaneuvering the aliens on a strategic and tactical level. A mechanic that is about robbing the player of agency in a game predicated on it is a bad mechanic; full stop.

No it's not. It's only your opinion that it is. An opinion I happen to disagree. Dealing in absolutes like this is good for contained, full-control, full-information games like chess, or, speaking about Gollop, Chaos Reborn. Or games that are close to it, like Starcraft. In games that fall more on the simulationist side (see Dwarf Fortress, or any Grand Strategy game), the uncertainty factor should appear. Because in such games, you cannot ignore the meta level. You wish to, but I disagree with it. And the meta level is:
1. You cannot fully investigate Earth, and by extension the alien activities as a whole. The world is to be imagined as vast and complex, not a contained chess board. The simulation simulates only some aspects, because it cannot ever simulate everything.
2. The inability of XCom to revert Infiltration should be therefore seen not as game failing, but an element of simulation which conveys a message about the game's world. The message conveyed is, it's beyond XCom's power to do so. We can interpret is as: XCom neither is able to, or mandated to, wage war on defecting Earth countries.

I don't mind RNG rolls determining outcomes for small scale stuff, like individual shots on the tactical level, since it's possible to control and manage your overall risk and still come out ahead; the loss of agency here is not meaningful unless you're a bad player and you constantly rely on making a shot or two to uphold your tactical game. I _do_ mind it however, when it comes to completely irreversible, high impact nonsense like infiltration events.

You deny feeling an emotional impact, yet you use the word "nonsense". Nonsense implies illogicality, yet you deny illogicality by your argument - by stating that both random chance to hit with a weapon and a random chance of losing a country are both mechanics of the same ilk - "the loss of player's agency". A notion I agree with, except I'd prefer to call it "simulation uncertainty". Uncertainty, if it happens, can only be illogical from the metagame point of view - and I have explained how the metagame level logically explains Infiltration. Therefore, it is logical, which doesn't, of course, automatically make it fair. I have agreed it is unfair, but acceptably unfair. It is not, in my opinion, unfair enough to make the game unplayable.

We can of course argue if the game should be more simulationist or more contained. As XCom was balanced to cater to both crowds, it seems to sit somewhere in the middle... My XCom is more simulationist than contained, but everyone has the right to their own XCom. Your sentiment is as good as mine in that regard, with the exception the original game works the way I prefer, not the way you prefer. However I cannot agree with the notion that bad contained game mechanics = bad game mechanics, since contained games are not the only kind of games.

Offline KiethSomataw99

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Re: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2015, 04:23:28 am »
What about my idea of liberating infiltrated countries I've stated several times:

Simply remove all alien bases within the borders/colonies in the sea zones bordering the country and there will be a chance each month that the country will nullify the pact with the aliens and start funding with an increase from $0. The higher your overall performance and the higher X-COM activity is within the nation, the higher chance of nullification.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2015, 07:43:58 pm »
No it's not. It's only your opinion that it is. An opinion I happen to disagree. Dealing in absolutes like this is good for contained, full-control, full-information games like chess, or, speaking about Gollop, Chaos Reborn. Or games that are close to it, like Starcraft. In games that fall more on the simulationist side (see Dwarf Fortress, or any Grand Strategy game), the uncertainty factor should appear. Because in such games, you cannot ignore the meta level. You wish to, but I disagree with it. And the meta level is:
1. You cannot fully investigate Earth, and by extension the alien activities as a whole. The world is to be imagined as vast and complex, not a contained chess board. The simulation simulates only some aspects, because it cannot ever simulate everything.
2. The inability of XCom to revert Infiltration should be therefore seen not as game failing, but an element of simulation which conveys a message about the game's world. The message conveyed is, it's beyond XCom's power to do so. We can interpret is as: XCom neither is able to, or mandated to, wage war on defecting Earth countries.

You deny feeling an emotional impact, yet you use the word "nonsense". Nonsense implies illogicality, yet you deny illogicality by your argument - by stating that both random chance to hit with a weapon and a random chance of losing a country are both mechanics of the same ilk - "the loss of player's agency". A notion I agree with, except I'd prefer to call it "simulation uncertainty". Uncertainty, if it happens, can only be illogical from the metagame point of view - and I have explained how the metagame level logically explains Infiltration. Therefore, it is logical, which doesn't, of course, automatically make it fair. I have agreed it is unfair, but acceptably unfair. It is not, in my opinion, unfair enough to make the game unplayable.

We can of course argue if the game should be more simulationist or more contained. As XCom was balanced to cater to both crowds, it seems to sit somewhere in the middle... My XCom is more simulationist than contained, but everyone has the right to their own XCom. Your sentiment is as good as mine in that regard, with the exception the original game works the way I prefer, not the way you prefer. However I cannot agree with the notion that bad contained game mechanics = bad game mechanics, since contained games are not the only kind of games.

From a perspective of respecting player agency, the infiltration mechanic is a failure as it clearly does not do so, whether or not it's euphemized as "simulation uncertainty".


From a perspective of simulationism, the infiltration mechanic is a failure because it either:

A: Involves UFO activity that is completely unnecessary if you assume that the activity is not required for mission success (i.e. everything of importance is done behind the scenes which is why you can't stop it; in this case the game may as well leave it as a dice roll), OR
B: Involves UFO activity that is necessary, but which cessation of has no material impact whatsoever, which makes it not simulationist at all as it violates logic and even verisimilitude.


Meanwhile the chance of infiltration success does _not_ in any way scale with X-Com's success which also contradicts a simulationist perspective; it is reasonable to expect that countries well serviced by X-Com would be more resistant to seeking a truce with the aliens, and doubly so if the overall effort is succeeding admirably.


From both perspectives this is certainly a bad mechanic, and there are far better implementations if it was intended to put the player on the clock, which it evidently does not because as previously established the player can self-fund quite easily by the time infiltration starts being a major issue, and defection of all countries does not end the game.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 07:48:16 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline KORfan

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Re: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated
« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2015, 05:15:51 am »
Even if X-Com was intended to be fighting a losing battle (I don't think that was ever actually confirmed by the devs),

The first line of Alien Origins in the UFOpedia is "It is clear that we are fighting a losing battle on earth."  It's the message they're giving us.

Offline Cristao

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Re: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2015, 11:32:19 am »
Inflitration - This was one of the reasons I wondered why I didnt see opposing humans during alien missions. If a country has been infiltrated and turned over to the dark side, why dont we see soldiers from those countries?

Offline Boltgun

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Re: Add Option To Allow Infiltrated Countries to Be Liberated
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2015, 01:33:13 pm »
Inflitration - This was one of the reasons I wondered why I didnt see opposing humans during alien missions. If a country has been infiltrated and turned over to the dark side, why dont we see soldiers from those countries?

Because it's not a unconditional surrender, rather a deal where the aliens agreed to stop terrorizing the country if they stop supporting xcom.