Thoughts on Apocalypse, and one thing I noticed about the factions

[Taberone]

Note: most of this is based on what I can remember.
I remember that a year ago, I was playing around with some savegame editor for Apocalypse. I tried to edit relations with the buisnesses, and I noticed something funny.

1)I can modify relationships for not just X-COM. Instead of X-COM and Transtellar(Alien Sympathizing scum), I could make it Transtellar and the Aliens.

2) (Right in the middle of a new game I just started)It seems every single faction is neutral to the aliens. You'd think that with aliens trying to invade Mega-Primus, their relations should be hostile.

That was the last time I played Apocalypse, because I found it too boring compared to the original. I tried to enjoy it, but I just couldn't. Realtime combat? Cityscape combat? Vehicles instantly dying if the road under them is destroyed? The god-awful slow timers on the Cityscape? (Don't even bother setting it to Ultra, because by the time you can react its already too late.)? The micromanaging, even during the air combat (Hoverbike Swarm + Forgetting to issue commands due to the intensity of combat= RIP hoverbikes)? Bugs? Brainsuckers? Not worth it. I can compliment the game on the Atom Punk/50's style, though. And the concept of the game itself.

Apocalypse is a massive example of "What could have been", according to one interview with Julian Gollop or something. I remember that he mentioned the game being bigger and more complex, with things like guns that shoot tracking devices, jail cells, and more. I'm honestly wishing for 2K/Firaxis to do another Enemy Unknown, except make it a remake of Apocalypse.

Basically, I can love the concept of Apocalypse with the realtime combat and various different factions(Faction X hates Faction Y! Faction X occasionally attacks Faction Y! The enemy of my enemy is my friend! X-COM, Thank you for helping me!), but the execution doesn't suit my tastes.

[kharille]

Yeah, I'm not that hostile to xcom 12', but with the available technology I wish they'd create more detail rather than a graphically intensive simplification of the original.

[SaintChozor]

Every time I booted up Apocalypse I've always had trouble on the emulation side of things, could never get it to run smoothly; but from what I've played it seems like a bit of a mess. Painfully convoluted and slow, where the best parts for me are the ones reminiscent of the the first game. Still, I wouldn't be against giving it another try.

To it's merit, the faction system was very cool, and the cityscape as an idea is awesome, just not very well implemented. If we were to see a Fireaxis Apoc. style game, I'd be hoping to Sathanas and all his horny devils that they try to keep as much of Gollop's original vision as intact as possible.

[Hobbes]

2) (Right in the middle of a new game I just started)It seems every single faction is neutral to the aliens. You'd think that with aliens trying to invade Mega-Primus, their relations should be hostile.

Businessman are always ready to make a deal.

Cityscape combat? Vehicles instantly dying if the road under them is destroyed?

There'a mod that makes the roads indestructible and that makes ground vehicles a lot more useful.

[robin]

Apocalypse aliens are not taking any (apparent) hostile action at the beginning, just strolling around the city.

Also, all the apoc setting is basically built upon the tech obtained by humanity after the first alien war. So the prospect of getting more new alien tech, makes the option of talking to (rather than fighting against) these "apparently not hostile aliens" very appealing (especially for greedy corporations).

Apoc development was too troubled, and Gollop did a bad call with the realtime combat (though it indeed made sense on paper). Aside from that, every single system/aspect is more developed-advanced than in the original game; the only missing bit was the lightning (no low-light missions), but it wasn't as important as in the original.

I hope eventually Gollop will pick up X-Com again; Apocalypse, flawed as it is, as of today is the only proper attempt at advancing the formula to the next step.

[Hobbes]

Apoc development was too troubled, and Gollop did a bad call with the realtime combat (though it indeed made sense on paper).

 

Realtime combat is IMHO one of the best features in Apoc. It is very different from turn-based but having the choice of both was a great call.

[kharille]

I hope eventually Gollop will pick up X-Com again; Apocalypse, flawed as it is, as of today is the only proper attempt at advancing the formula to the next step.

Really need to support his efforts.  I made my biggest kickstarter donation to his latest game, even though I was not a fan of the ol' Chaos, and this one scares me...  Apart from Lords of Chaos and Magic & Mayhem, this fantasy game isn't quite my thing.  But I realize I need to support him as much as possible before he can consider other projects.  He was disturbed at how much of a struggle it was to get his kickstarter running, and resorted to doing other promotional stuff like working with youtube letsplayers.

Hope it turns out well, I prefer stuff with more of a storyline if its a fantasy turn based strategy.

[Taberone]

The music in Apoc was great, atleast during tactical combat.

[robin]

Realtime combat is IMHO one of the best features in Apoc. It is very different from turn-based but having the choice of both was a great call.

AFAIK Apocalypse was to be realtime only. Then Microprose asked to add turn because it feared realtime would alienate the fans of the original (it did). The "both" wasn't a Gollop's call.


The choice seemed great on paper, but in practice it wasn't as good, both in behavior and in interface. The extra dynamism easily turns into uninteresting chaos and, info UFO missions, into "wait in front of the door for the aliens to come out" tactics, which is less dynamic than turns. The interface is built around "firing squads" instead of single men: I don't know how you play UFO, but I "call" the name of my men as it appears when they are selected, this is great for telling your own stories and it doesn't happen in Apoc, emotionally detaching you from your squad (and since also stats in realtime have less importance than in turns, your men are basically almost nameless grunts from some RTS game -  and this is contradictory to the extra details that the game offer in the hiring screen: that detail counts less/is "forgotten" in the main part of the game).
I don't hate it, I even think it is good, and I'm not a "X-Com must be turn based" person (and Apocalypse was the first X-Com game I played, so it isn't a case of "it's worse because it's not like the first time!"), but to me UFO turn-based combat is just much better.

About the "both" thing. Stats still had to be balanced and of course they're balanced towards realtime: since in RT your men are hit many times, the deadlines of the weapon can only be a fraction of what they were in UFO (otherwise it would be a massacre in a couple of seconds). This low power makes Apoc turn-based combat quite sleep inducing, as only brainsuckers and a very rare rocket can pose some kind of threat: the tension just isn't there (the stats in turn based mode are really "off", all fast weapons, such as machine guns and toxigun, are completely broken).

[volutar]

I couldn't play Apocalypse because of micromanagement hell and learning curve, comparable to "Dwarf Fortress". It was just over my head to figure all these things. I wanted to learn things when they arise, but in Apoc they are simply swarmed, and 3 of my tries ended up with agent-craft re-management, and individual scientists. When I saw how OVERCOMPLICATED it is, I just realised that I can't deal with it. It's highly unfriendly for the newbies. Games shouldn't behave like that. Games shouldn't be overcomplicated that way. Personally I think Gollop was swimming in  his own pool for too long, and went into wrong direction. There are nice ideas and things, of course, but the way of introducing and managing them was...  poorly accomplished. All these nice things should be "optional" and introducing one in a time, not to scare people away.

Another aspecs I really disliked about Apoc are:
1. No darkness. No shading at all. No nights.
2. Awful aliens design. They are just some gross blobs of $hit.

[bladum]

Apoc had same problem as later arcanum, mix of RT and TB battle makes everything just pain in the arse. In both cases decision was not made by developer but by publisher...

[kharille]

Watched metalcanyon's lets play of Apoc.  Tried to get into it myself but just couldn't.  I'm sure it was a good effort but maybe its because theres so much other stuff to play these days.  Still, the real time aspect means that a game can go much quicker. 

For me if I were to restart my xcom game I'd just get a horde of rookies to identify everything and kill them all in a hail of laserfire.

The art work was bad for Apoc.  I wonder whether it was ...  I think I remember Julian mentioning it during one of his lectures.  Guess he didn't have a choice in that.

[Sharp]

yup, artwork was all MicroProse for that.

[pilot00]

Apocalypse is a massive example of "What could have been", according to one interview with Julian Gollop or something. I remember that he mentioned the game being bigger and more complex, with things like guns that shoot tracking devices, jail cells, and more. I'm honestly wishing for 2K/Firaxis to do another Enemy Unknown, except make it a remake of Apocalypse.

Having dug in to the files after reading Gollops interview on the matter several years ago, one thing becomes evident: The game was released half finished. There were mechanics upon mechanics that were never implemented and either remained as design concepts or half finished code.

That said even in its half finished state, if you played enough of it and learned how to balance out its oddities, it revealed itself the uncut diamond it was. There are several mechanics in that game, that were too damn awesome, and even new games of the genre ignore.

BTW Real time was not mandatory. Also it had the BEST arch-enemy alien, who at its time was something completely refreshing.

I really hope that one day someone will get arround and fix this damned game to the glory it was supposed to be made

2) (Right in the middle of a new game I just started)It seems every single faction is neutral to the aliens. You'd think that with aliens trying to invade Mega-Primus, their relations should be hostile.

When you start the game, only the Senate and Megapol (and perhaps the cult) officially know about the aliens existance (your allies and defacto hostile to alliens). If you read the manual that has  the briefing to the commander, where the senate is not exactly sure wheather the aliens are responsible for the degeneration of the scocial fabric of the city and they remain cautious because no hostile contact in the maner of the two previous wars was made.

I couldn't play Apocalypse because of micromanagement hell and learning curve, comparable to "Dwarf Fortress". It was just over my head to figure all these things. I wanted to learn things when they arise, but in Apoc they are simply swarmed, and 3 of my tries ended up with agent-craft re-management, and individual scientists. When I saw how OVERCOMPLICATED it is, I just realised that I can't deal with it. It's highly unfriendly for the newbies. Games shouldn't behave like that. Games shouldn't be overcomplicated that way. Personally I think Gollop was swimming in  his own pool for too long, and went into wrong direction. There are nice ideas and things, of course, but the way of introducing and managing them was...  poorly accomplished. All these nice things should be "optional" and introducing one in a time, not to scare people away.

Another aspecs I really disliked about Apoc are:
1. No darkness. No shading at all. No nights.
2. Awful aliens design. They are just some gross blobs of $hit.

I quite dissagree. The thing is, when you start yes everything IS a mess and a big one at that. When you figure out what to do though (and eventually you will), you will see that most things there are not as complex as they seem.

[Solarius Scorch]

There's so much to fix in this game! It was a shame it couldn't be polished more.

But I agree that the aliens looked like $hit.