aliens

Author Topic: Elurium improved explosives  (Read 10430 times)

Offline MrFrustrated

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 104
    • View Profile
Elurium improved explosives
« on: October 21, 2014, 02:47:53 am »
Elurium improved explosives

After researching both alien grenades and Elurium, you should be able to research and builded improved Earth explosive devices. I would use 50% improvement as the figure.

Start by researching 'E-115 improved explosives.' Since alien grenades do 80% more damage than earth grenades, 50% is more than justified. Since Earth scientist don't fully understand E-115, it makes sense we don't make the most of it. Using E-115 and certain conventional items, you would be able to generate some improved weapons.

Craft

Lesser missles 70 --> 105
Stronger Missles 100 --> 150

HWP

Rockets 85--> 127

Big guns

Heavy cannon 52-->78
Auto cannon 44-->66
Rocket Launcher, small-75--> 112
    "           "          large- 100--> 150

Bombs

Prox grenade-70--> 105
Hi Ex 110-->165


From this list, the items further down would be more useful.

The improve rockets would make them useable for the rest of the game.

What do others think?

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 03:08:18 am »
In general, using Elerium for ammunition is not very successful since it is a scarce resource and people tend to be conservative about it.

If I may point you to the XCom Armoury Expanded, there is there an upgraded version of craft missiles which make use of Elerium as an explosive, and an Elerium explosive ammunition for the weapon I designed to replace the heavy cannon. The Alien Armoury Expanded has the Elerium Bombs for the Small Launcher.

Given that you need 2 Elerium units to manufacture an alien grenade, it becomes costly to manufacture other ammunition. A large elerium rocket that does a lot more damage than an alien grenade will need..? 3? 4? It quickly becomes ridiculous.

I could see it for a really high explosives which could allow you to blow up the hull of an UFO. You'd use that ~once per mission and maybe the cost of 4-5 Elerium would be justified by being able to come in from a way the aliens don't expect. Maybe.

In the later game, with soldiers becoming more and more accurate along with aliens becoming tougher, you start to need the AoE effect of explosives less and less. Partial hits no longer do enough damage, and you can get direct hits often enough to deliver the damage you need most of the time.

It's a good idea, in principle, but the economy of Elerium makes it very difficult to apply. That, and the Auto/Heavy Cannons are really not that great compared to laser or plasma weapons in terms of TUs and accuracy, so they would not really become great even if you jacked up their damage.

I invite you to test the XAE and AAE, especially the weapons I mentioned. If you think more could be done, I welcome suggestions on what to add to my mod. Also, I think that Equal Terms has Elerium ammunition for some weapons, although I never played with it so I am not 100% sure.

Offline Hobbes

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2102
  • Infiltration subroutine in progress
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 03:27:40 am »
Anything that increases the current power of explosives just increase the player's advantage over the AI when using them. Blaster Launchers are already overpowered in vanilla since you can simply level an entire map using them.

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 05:10:48 am »
Assuming that the intent is to delay player access to the Blaster Launcher, but give them something worse (but better than starting explosives) while waiting, that actually helps the AI overall.

Early game: Nothing changed
Mid game: Player has slightly improved explosives instead of Blaster Launcher
End game: Player has Blaster Launcher, nothing changed.

Dismissing such proposal out of hand seems peculiar to me. If the explosives come right after researching Elerium-115, that might be too early since it is not at this point replacing the Blaster Launcher, just improving the player's weapons, you're right. If it comes later, when in a vanilla game a player would have access to a launcher in vanilla, then it is not an undue advantage.

Offline Hobbes

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2102
  • Infiltration subroutine in progress
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 04:39:51 pm »
Dismissing such proposal out of hand seems peculiar to me.


It's called 'critical thinking'. Something that modders should do, especially when developing weapons, rather than assuming that their ideas have no flaws.

Quote
If the explosives come right after researching Elerium-115, that might be too early since it is not at this point replacing the Blaster Launcher, just improving the player's weapons, you're right. If it comes later, when in a vanilla game a player would have access to a launcher in vanilla, then it is not an undue advantage.

You just confirmed what I said.

If they came early, players will want to use them since it gives quite an advantage. And if I was playing I would rush research on Elerium - Improved Explosives just to get a High Explosive that can deal up to 220 in random damage.

If they came about the same time as the Blaster Launcher, then the launcher makes them almost obsolete (due to its 100% aim and guiding paths). However, the High Explosive (and Large Rocket), would possibly be used to punch holes in UFO walls. But here you're still giving an advantage to the player by allowing him/her to blast those walls using a weapon that uses less Elerium than a Blaster Launcher.

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2014, 07:11:37 pm »
It's called 'critical thinking'. Something that modders should do, especially when developing weapons, rather than assuming that their ideas have no flaws.

I'm not assuming ideas have no flaws, I am assuming that they all have potential. Wanting to improve on ideas is exactly why we discuss them on forums.

Quote
You just confirmed what I said.

If they came early, players will want to use them since it gives quite an advantage. And if I was playing I would rush research on Elerium - Improved Explosives just to get a High Explosive that can deal up to 220 in random damage.

Really? I am usually trying to save on Elerium in the early game since I know I'll need it later to fuel crafts and build stuff, while a large rocket can handle most of what I want explosives for (its damage is more than enough for sectoids, floaters and snakemen to a large extent, with cyberdiscs being the only ones needing some softening first). I don't see a reason to rush this tech, it really is effective mostly in midgame when things get though.

Quote
If they came about the same time as the Blaster Launcher, then the launcher makes them almost obsolete (due to its 100% aim and guiding paths). However, the High Explosive (and Large Rocket), would possibly be used to punch holes in UFO walls. But here you're still giving an advantage to the player by allowing him/her to blast those walls using a weapon that uses less Elerium than a Blaster Launcher.

Did you purposely pick two cases where it doesn't work? And then obviously if it doesn't work when you give it early (too powerful), and doesn't work when you give it at the end (obsolete), we can interpolate and say that it never works. ::)

Many a mod tries to lengthen the game, part of which is making Blaster Launchers come later. When doing that, you can use Elerium Explosives to help the player bridge the now longer gap by giving them "better than starting explosives but worse than Blaster Launchers" weapons while waiting for the (now coming later) Blaster Launchers.

Say in a vanilla game you get Blaster Launchers in month X. Now I mod the game such that due to extra research requirements you can only feasibly get Blaster Launchers in month Z = X+Y, Y > 0 (ie a few months later than in a vanilla game). If nothing changes for the aliens (the same races show up, with the same weapons), giving Elerium Explosives to XCom at month X instead of the Blaster Launcher is actually a nerf: they are getting less of an upgrade compared to aliens not losing anything. And that's working as intended, the aim of lengthening the game is to make it more difficult (use ballistic weapons more, delay lasers, etc.). I think it fits right in.

The Elerium Explosives are relevant at some point of the game: they are better than the starting ones and come before Blaster Launchers make them obsolete. The endgame experience doesn't change whatsoever (it's still Blaster Launchers vs endgame aliens).

Your point on the new explosives being more economical still stands, potentially, but that can be dealt with by tailoring the damage so it is less practical (Maybe only allow them to destroy UFO interior walls, which is still useful but not as powerful as breaching the hull, or impose a hard limit on blast radius so it is not as useful in combat as a blaster bomb, or something else that we can come up with if we discuss the idea instead of just rejecting it).

I just remembered that you have the philosophy of sticking to vanilla as much as possible. So I agree to disagree. I really like the work you've done for OpenXCom and thoroughly enjoy using your mods. Too bad you don't appreciate the other stuff.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 07:37:10 pm by Arthanor »

Offline MrFrustrated

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 104
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2014, 08:02:36 pm »
In general, using Elerium for ammunition is not very successful since it is a scarce resource and people tend to be conservative about it.

...

Given that you need 2 Elerium units to manufacture an alien grenade, it becomes costly to manufacture other ammunition. A large elerium rocket that does a lot more damage than an alien grenade will need..? 3? 4? It quickly becomes ridiculous.

I could see it for a really high explosives which could allow you to blow up the hull of an UFO. You'd use that ~once per mission and maybe the cost of 4-5 Elerium would be justified by being able to come in from a way the aliens don't expect. Maybe.

My view of these weapons is that you wouldn't use them in every battle, but for boarding terror ships and battleships, some terror missions, and base fights. You would use them against the stronger aliens like the snakemen terror monster, maybe mutons, definetely Etherals and Sectopods.

Yes, you could use them to breach a ufo inner wall as well, and there's a chance of breaching an outer wall (1 in 6 for the rocket, roughly 1 in 4.5 for the Hi Ex)

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2014, 08:47:50 pm »
As far as I know, explosive damage always does the listed damage on terrain. Only weapons with direct fire apply random damage to terrain. (See: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Destroying_Terrain)

Outer walls have a damage rating of 100, so only with 200 damage can you breach them. Something the blaster launcher can do (with its damage of 200), but that your Elerium High Explosive could not.

Inner walls and doors have a damage rating of 80, so the Elerium High Explosive would destroy a wall right next to it, but even the large rocket would fall short.

In all, that's a nice feature of the numbers you picked, they are in between the destroying properties of Blaster Launchers and the starting explosives.

Offline Hobbes

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2102
  • Infiltration subroutine in progress
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2014, 09:25:13 pm »
I'm not assuming ideas have no flaws, I am assuming that they all have potential. Wanting to improve on ideas is exactly why we discuss them on forums.

If you have a lot of time/effort to spend or don't mind creating something that most likely it will be almost you that will regularly play it, then you can experiment new ideas as much as you like.

But if you post and idea and are expecting merely answers like: "awesome idea!", well that's not feedback, period.

Quote
Really? I am usually trying to save on Elerium in the early game since I know I'll need it later to fuel crafts and build stuff, while a large rocket can handle most of what I want explosives for (its damage is more than enough for sectoids, floaters and snakemen to a large extent, with cyberdiscs being the only ones needing some softening first). I don't see a reason to rush this tech, it really is effective mostly in midgame when things get though.

You'd play that way, I'd play it different. Cyberdiscs are enough nightmares to make me go for improved explosives early, specially since Elerium isn't that hard to obtain later if you use the right tactics.

Quote
Did you purposely pick two cases where it doesn't work? And then obviously if it doesn't work when you give it early (too powerful), and doesn't work when you give it at the end (obsolete), we can interpolate and say that it never works. ::)

Yes I did, because no one had considered yet these situations. Or did you wanted me only to present the cases where the idea works, which is usually what happens when someone creates a mod? ::)

But feel free to ignore feedback that you don't agree with - it's your time and effort, after all.

Quote
Many a mod tries to lengthen the game, part of which is making Blaster Launchers come later. When doing that, you can use Elerium Explosives to help the player bridge the now longer gap by giving them "better than starting explosives but worse than Blaster Launchers" weapons while waiting for the (now coming later) Blaster Launchers.

Say in a vanilla game you get Blaster Launchers in month X. Now I mod the game such that due to extra research requirements you can only feasibly get Blaster Launchers in month Z = X+Y, Y > 0 (ie a few months later than in a vanilla game). If nothing changes for the aliens (the same races show up, with the same weapons), giving Elerium Explosives to XCom at month X instead of the Blaster Launcher is actually a nerf: they are getting less of an upgrade compared to aliens not losing anything. And that's working as intended, the aim of lengthening the game is to make it more difficult (use ballistic weapons more, delay lasers, etc.). I think it fits right in.

The Elerium Explosives are relevant at some point of the game: they are better than the starting ones and come before Blaster Launchers make them obsolete. The endgame experience doesn't change whatsoever (it's still Blaster Launchers vs endgame aliens).

OK, so now you need other mods to lengthen the game or prevent Blaster Launchers from appearing on Retaliation/Battleship missions during the first months, the latter being impossible to achieve with the current rulesets, to make the Elerium Explosives work. What about the the side effects that those changes would have on its balance (which would require more changes, etc.)?

Quote
Your point on the new explosives being more economical still stands, potentially, but that can be dealt with by tailoring the damage so it is less practical (Maybe only allow them to destroy UFO interior walls, which is still useful but not as powerful as breaching the hull, or impose a hard limit on blast radius so it is not as useful in combat as a blaster bomb, or something else that we can come up with if we discuss the idea instead of just rejecting it).

You just came up with all those suggestions after I made a criticism about this idea and we discussed it. :)

One thing is to merely say: "This idea sucks!", which is just negative and adds nothing.

Something completely different is to say: "this idea won't work because of X, Y or Z" - that's constructive criticism, which was what I did on the first post.

If you think the second type of feedback is the same as the first, then you really don't want to listen to what other people have got to say about your idea, and you're merely posting threads for people to tell you how cool you are.

Quote
I just remembered that you have the philosophy of sticking to vanilla as much as possible. So I agree to disagree. I really like the work you've done for OpenXCom and thoroughly enjoy using your mods. Too bad you don't appreciate the other stuff.

I have that philosophy for two reasons, one of which I previously stated on this post:
1) Any changes have side effects and usually the author is not aware of all of them.
2) You need a standard to judge whether a change is worthwhile or not. Vanilla is the standard because that's what players are expecting. Any changes thus need to have a minimal impact on overall gameplay while at the same time add something really new.

Now, taking into example my terrains, I've got on my map editor a ton of terrains I designed based on ideas I and others had. Some work, others don't, and others would require a lot of additional changes on the OXC engine to properly work. At the end, I mainly stick to the same principles that are already behind the vanilla maps (both UFO and TFTD) because that's what works best. I merely take some of those guidelines and apply them to different terrains, for instance one complain I hear a lot is how it is hard to blow up terrain features on my mods. But that's intended, to make players use different tactics rather than scout and snipe or blow up everything, and it is something that map designers had already implemented on several terrains on TFTD.

Having all this experience with map design doesn't mean I don't listen to feedback. I've reduced the armor of the terrains a few times because players told me: "it's too frustrating to bring down those walls". And since I want other people to enjoy my terrains, well, I listen to them and reduce the armor settings a little, since my play style can be different from others. And, quite honestly, one of the reasons why people like terrain pack so much is that it doesn't change almost anything on the gameplay, with the exception of using different tactics when playing them, but at the same time the original terrains are kept, so not much has been changed.

Now, I'll repeat what I said on the first post: "Anything that increases the current power of explosives just increases the player's advantage over the AI when using them."

And quite honestly, everyone here has merely jumped into the band wagon of "yuppie, it's something new!"  and no one has considered this fact. So to me you're merely amplifying this vanilla flaw with this kind of mod.

Offline Arthanor

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2488
  • XCom Armoury Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2014, 11:27:36 pm »
If you have a lot of time/effort to spend or don't mind creating something that most likely it will be almost you that will regularly play it, then you can experiment new ideas as much as you like.

But if you post and idea and are expecting merely answers like: "awesome idea!", well that's not feedback, period.

I enjoy creating mods and I design them to then improve my enjoyment when I play the game, so it's a double win even if nobody uses them. It's even better if people do use them and help me improve them though, which is why I am posting on this forum and sharing the XCom Armoury Expanded.

I'm not sure if you are targeting me specifically, but Elerium explosives are not an idea I posted. I am simply trying to find ways to make it work, instead of restricting myself to finding reasons it doesn't work. Feel free to go through my stuff, in the XAE.

Rereading the early post, I suspect I missed your original intent. It came across as dismissive and negative, but I realize now it probably was not your intention.

Quote
You'd play that way, I'd play it different. Cyberdiscs are enough nightmares to make me go for improved explosives early, specially since Elerium isn't that hard to obtain later if you use the right tactics.

Ah, well, we each have our tactics.

Hopefully we can trust modders to make mods that aren't just exploits. I tend to think I can trust players to not be exploiters as well though. We are playing this game for our own enjoyment and there is no multiplayer/competitive element where it would matter to "gain the upper hand" any ways. Also, if you want to exploit stuff, it is amazingly easy in OpenXCom (give yourself billions though save edits, change the damage value and accuracy of laser pistols though ruleset edits, save scumming, etc).

Quote
Yes I did, because no one had considered yet these situations. Or did you wanted me only to present the cases where the idea works, which is usually what happens when someone creates a mod? ::)

But feel free to ignore feedback that you don't agree with - it's your time and effort, after all.

It is good practice to present problems along potential solutions or ideas, not restrict oneself to only the problems. It makes the critic constructive and also helps it go though better. As shown by our discussion, I do not tend to ignore feedback any ways, but some is more pleasant than others.

In this case, it doesn't really matter that the idea doesn't work in 99% of cases, provided that the intention is to implement it in the 1% case where it works. The implication that it doesn't work in general because it doesn't at the beginning or the end of the game was also questionable, but maybe you did not intend it.

Quote
OK, so now you need other mods to lengthen the game or prevent Blaster Launchers from appearing on Retaliation/Battleship missions during the first months, the latter being impossible to achieve with the current rulesets, to make the Elerium Explosives work. What about the the side effects that those changes would have on its balance (which would require more changes, etc.)?

Although it is impossible to prevent it from showing up, it is entirely possible to restrict Blaster Launcher access with the current ruleset. Having the weapon in your stores doesn't mean being able to use/research it and extended research trees will restrict its use until the proper time in the game.

Of course, that does indeed require other mods. There are actually really few mods that don't require anything to maintain proper balance: reskins, sound changes.. creating an entirely equivalent weapon to a vanilla one, maybe? (But I actually don't think so, even Gauss weapons as laser alternatives change the balance). In a sense, your terrains change balance as well. They provide new challenges and often require changes of tactics/weaponry. A terrain with more cover is a much better terrain for chryssalids. A very complicated terrain is bad for the AI (I've had a few terrors with 0 civilian casualties, simply because the aliens could not find the civilians!).

Is it a bad thing to change balance? I would say only if it deteriorates the game experience. Maybe making the game harder is better? (slower lasers, changes to psi-overpowers, plasma and armors, etc). But that's a rather personal choice.

Neither is requiring other mods (or really elaborate mods) a bad thing provided you are willing to do it. That's what the FMP, Equal Terms and to a much lesser extent, the XAE all try to provide: A balanced series of changes to provide an improved experience. Piratez is different in that it is pretty much a new game, but fundamentally it also changes a whole bunch of stuff while still trying to maintain balance.

Quote
You just came up with all those suggestions after I made a criticism about this idea and we discussed it. :)

One thing is to merely say: "This idea sucks!", which is just negative and adds nothing.

Something completely different is to say: "this idea won't work because of X, Y or Z" - that's constructive criticism, which was what I did on the first post.

If you think the second type of feedback is the same as the first, then you really don't want to listen to what other people have got to say about your idea, and you're merely posting threads for people to tell you how cool you are.

Indeed, discussing mod ideas can very much improve them :)

You have indeed gone beyond the "This idea is sucks" critic. "This idea won't work because of X,Y,Z" is an improvement and I can see the added value in it. But it is still missing the suggestion, potential solution, suspicion of what might work, the positive element that makes a critic a good one. I will grant you, all definitions of "constructive criticism" say that it "often" or "usually" contains positive elements so it is not required, but it helps a lot, especially in the context of free, personal work like modding.

Quote
I have that philosophy for two reasons, one of which I previously stated on this post:
1) Any changes have side effects and usually the author is not aware of all of them.
2) You need a standard to judge whether a change is worthwhile or not. Vanilla is the standard because that's what players are expecting. Any changes thus need to have a minimal impact on overall gameplay while at the same time add something really new.

1) That's why we share mods and try to get feedback.
2) However great vanilla is, I believe we can improve on it. Players expectations and enjoyment vary greatly, creating a variety of mods which allows everyone to pick and chose what they like (or nothing) seems to be the way to go. We are not selling "The one experience", we are enabling people to design their desired experience. (This is also why I am a fan of more modular mods than bigger ones). In the end, if someone enjoys curbstomping aliens like space marines in a 40k novel, he's not preventing me from enjoying my delayed tech, more challenging game.

Quote
Now, I'll repeat what I said on the first post: "Anything that increases the current power of explosives just increases the player's advantage over the AI when using them."

And quite honestly, everyone here has merely jumped into the band wagon of "yuppie, it's something new!"  and no one has considered this fact. So to me you're merely amplifying this vanilla flaw with this kind of mod.

I'll correct that again: "Anything that increases the power of explosives at a given point in a modded game past what is available in the vanilla game at that point just increases the player's advantage over the AI when using them."

Provided that the increase in power occurs at the appropriate time (In this case: after Blaster Launcher would be available in vanilla, but before it is available in the modded game), it in facts lowers the player's advantage over the AI, while keeping everything relevant. But we're going in circles now.

I agree with you that not everything new is good, especially as it is first proposed. I disagree that no one has considered balance when creating mods, although they may well not have reached the same conclusion as you.

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 11694
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2014, 04:27:44 pm »
Well, not long ago I've added Elerium rockets to the Final Mod Pack (blast power: 130), so obviously I'm not exactly against it. However, I agree with Hobbes that they do present balance issues. My particular solution was:
- Power 130 is much, but still nothing crazy (Large Rocket is 90). It certainly won't allow you to make holes in UFOs, and it still costs you Elerium.
- It can only be fired from an "Advanced Rocket Launcher", which is really expensive to produce due to the necessary components (it requires Alien Electronics, which can only be found in Cyberdiscs, Sectopods and certain elite MiBs).
Does this make them balanced? Hell if I know. I just wanted to confirm that this is a delicate issue.

Offline LeBashar

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2014, 07:09:57 pm »
Come back to the starting question, my little opinion :

- crafts things : useless because the air combat is already to easy and unbalanced. More weapons less powerful than plasma canon has no point.
- HWP : for now against the idea because if HWP can't load various ammunition, then it imply build a new rocket HWP which seem a time waste for a so little difference (and make screen menu more longer for nothing)
- equipment : Why using Hv or Auto cannon little improved when you can just use the two OP weapon of the game, laser rifle and plasma cannon ? For me there is only two things potentially useful. A better prox grenade (because some later aliens laught about them in their privates jokes) and an explosive able to breach UFOs hull. A Hi Ex with 165 power can't do that, so the only thing which seem usable is the better prox grenade. But why the hell should we need to use elerium for build something which is not as powerful as a simple Hi Ex ? It should not be involve alien technology to just design a bigger and weighter prox grenade, but just the idea to put a prox detonator on a standart Hi Ex (no ? ).

Offline Warboy1982

  • Administrator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2333
  • Developer
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2014, 07:33:11 pm »
alien grenades and fusion ball launchers ARE elerium enhanced explosives...

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 11694
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 07:42:38 pm »
alien grenades and fusion ball launchers ARE elerium enhanced explosives...

You're right, of course, but I thread the thread was more about Elerium rockets (which don't exist, except for the Blaster Bombs which are on a totally different level) and craft missiles (which are like Blaster Bombs, only useless due to being outclassed by the Plasma Cannon that is generally available earlier, due to way more shots).

Offline Hobbes

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 2102
  • Infiltration subroutine in progress
    • View Profile
Re: Elurium improved explosives
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2014, 05:48:29 pm »
Hopefully we can trust modders to make mods that aren't just exploits. I tend to think I can trust players to not be exploiters as well though. We are playing this game for our own enjoyment and there is no multiplayer/competitive element where it would matter to "gain the upper hand" any ways. Also, if you want to exploit stuff, it is amazingly easy in OpenXCom (give yourself billions though save edits, change the damage value and accuracy of laser pistols though ruleset edits, save scumming, etc).

There will always be exploits and I have nothing against them but with cheats (or anything that gives a big advantage to the player) their replayability and fun will usually be limited to a few tries since it will get boring killing scores of aliens without consequences.

Quote
In this case, it doesn't really matter that the idea doesn't work in 99% of cases, provided that the intention is to implement it in the 1% case where it works. The implication that it doesn't work in general because it doesn't at the beginning or the end of the game was also questionable, but maybe you did not intend it.

There's a recent video released by Firaxis about the Class System on the new Enemy Unknown where Ananda Gupta says something about their philosophy when creating games. Basically, if an tactic/feature is fun but it isn't an optimal move for the player, then it will lose its appeal, so for the game to capture players it needs to have features that are both fun and optimal.

Optimal moves are those that reward the player for good play, i.e., the ability to decide the best option between several possible ones. However, when you introduce something that dominates all other options, then the player will focus only on that super choice and get bored with it and the rest of the game after a while.

Quote
Although it is impossible to prevent it from showing up, it is entirely possible to restrict Blaster Launcher access with the current ruleset. Having the weapon in your stores doesn't mean being able to use/research it and extended research trees will restrict its use until the proper time in the game.

Of course, that does indeed require other mods. There are actually really few mods that don't require anything to maintain proper balance: reskins, sound changes.. creating an entirely equivalent weapon to a vanilla one, maybe? (But I actually don't think so, even Gauss weapons as laser alternatives change the balance). In a sense, your terrains change balance as well. They provide new challenges and often require changes of tactics/weaponry. A terrain with more cover is a much better terrain for chryssalids. A very complicated terrain is bad for the AI (I've had a few terrors with 0 civilian casualties, simply because the aliens could not find the civilians!).

I completely agree that my terrains can change balance. Everytime I land on certain terrains during Terror missions I almost want to dust off right away rather than getting my entire squad killed. But this is actually increasing the number of possible optimal moves, depending on the overall situation, my weapons and armor, aliens present, etc.

Quote
Is it a bad thing to change balance? I would say only if it deteriorates the game experience. Maybe making the game harder is better? (slower lasers, changes to psi-overpowers, plasma and armors, etc). But that's a rather personal choice.

Neither is requiring other mods (or really elaborate mods) a bad thing provided you are willing to do it. That's what the FMP, Equal Terms and to a much lesser extent, the XAE all try to provide: A balanced series of changes to provide an improved experience. Piratez is different in that it is pretty much a new game, but fundamentally it also changes a whole bunch of stuff while still trying to maintain balance.

Your mileage may vary there. Some players will welcome more difficulty. Others will hate it.

Same way for requiring other mods: some players will want it all, others will want as little change as possible.

But with balance we're talking about something else. Weapons that then to dominate the battlefield will make a player limit himself to them and will be boring after a while.

Quote
I'll correct that again: "Anything that increases the power of explosives at a given point in a modded game past what is available in the vanilla game at that point just increases the player's advantage over the AI when using them."

Well, that being so then to me Elerium-based explosives fall into this category, if you're giving players this option before they get blaster launchers. But the issue is not only giving them to the player but whether they become available or not for the AI.

One example: one of the best mods I've seen (not yet in OXC though) is the ability to load and fire Alien Grenades using Small Launchers instead of throwing them, without needing to prime them first. This essentially turns the Launcher into a alien Heavy Cannon, but with limitations on clip size (you can only fire once before reloading) and soldiers not carrying Launchers can still prime and throw the grenades. But the AI can use grenades this way too, which makes the alien Medics more dangerous and adds an uncertainty level (will it fire a Stun Bomb or an Alien Grenade at my troops?).

So, for instance, with Elerium-based explosives you should consider as well what you can give to the aliens to offset this advantage. Allowing their Heavy Plasmas to fire explosive rounds (*evil!*)? Giving them an even more powerful alien grenade? Well, I don't know, but I think it would help any mod if it includes both advantages and drawbacks to use it.