Author Topic: Armoured cilivans?  (Read 7421 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2014, 12:31:55 am »
Yeah, I agree, though I'd prefer to be able to set the weapon saturation by region.

And we could also have military bases attacked, like in Xenonauts... :)

Offline Qpoter

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2014, 01:32:34 am »
If a mod like this were ever made I think simplicity would be key. Something like, all cops having guns and weak armor, 25% of civilians have guns. Using item levels you could make it so that civilians would have more guns over time as people start getting scared, and eventually replace cops with SWAT teams and then the military (who would also have tanks).

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2014, 01:56:12 am »
If a mod like this were ever made I think simplicity would be key. Something like, all cops having guns and weak armor, 25% of civilians have guns. Using item levels you could make it so that civilians would have more guns over time as people start getting scared, and eventually replace cops with SWAT teams and then the military (who would also have tanks).

Have you played GTA recently? :D

If so, you forgot FBI agents... ;)

Offline Yankes

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2014, 03:06:13 am »
Interesting would be if both sides (Aliens and Civilian/Cops) use explosive weapons.

Offline Vulgar Monkey

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2014, 03:36:41 am »
Narratively I like the idea of governments keeping an 'open secret' til the bitter end.
Like, initially you'd have real efforts to cover up evidence.....it's a fun game to play with news headlines. Ebola? Nah, chryssalids. Missing airliner? Aliens. Tempora? Nah, Geoscape. Sinkhole? Alien base.

Then even after things are forced into the general public consciousness (like the aforementioned nsa stuff) the official bodies will only say 'no comment' while perhaps unofficially helping to organise neighbourhood militias and reinforcing essential infrastructure in case of 'terrorists'.

Of course it depends how you interpret the setting. Since original xcom was based in the late 90s you didnt have social media or prevalent video recording....although if you absolutely had to you could probably engineer a narrative around that too, afterall real life has governments planning social media blackouts at the drop of the hat in the right circumstances.

But that's the story. In terms of actual game mechanics I like the idea of armed civvies mainly just for the friendly fire potential. I like the idea of your star doorman meeting his demise because of some dumb scared teenager in a closet with dads service pistol.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2014, 10:48:39 pm »
And many people of the gun are exactly the kind of people who would try to fight the aliens instead of running away,

Another proof that civilian access to firearms shortens lives, by interrupting healthy flight response when faced with a predator :)

Offline Harald_Gray

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2014, 12:12:17 am »
Only if the ingame civilians were smart enough to do that, instead of running towards the aliens or into my line of fire...  :)

And I'm happy to see that smiley face in your post, I'd hate to spam this forum with offtopic debates.

Offline Camalex97

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2014, 06:33:44 pm »
well keep in mind that x-com's default rifle only uses a 6.7mm round... i doubt that even a muton could hold up very well to a 50bmg  :P

Offline Harald_Gray

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2014, 10:24:15 pm »
Keep in mind that it takes about 10 heavy cannon hits to take out a muton with AP ammo. Plus weapon damages in XCom are almost completely unrealistic, driven by gaming logic  ::) ;)

Offline RSSwizard

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2014, 01:21:11 am »
On Terror Missions add another faction >>> Police Forces
Its a faction allied with XCom but counts as Civilians for point penalty losses.
They would be wearing crap armor (25 rating at most).
They would have a high multiplier for explosive damage (like 1.5x to 2x)
So you can shoot them by accident with a pistol or rifle and they wont die, but don't you dare toss a grenade next to them, because their body armor wont protect them from it.

They would be carrying Pistols and have 1 spare clip.
They would be carrying a Stun Rod.
They would engage the AI behavior of avoiding being seen by enemy forces as much as possible.
And they have Very Low Reactions (but at least they will open fire on their own turn if an enemy is close).
If you want to you can give them a Shotgun which is basically a carbon copy of a Heavy Cannon but with 8 rounds capacity @ 40 damage each (slug shells). It doesn't have to be a purchasable or recoverable weapon.


On some terror missions you can replace all of the civilians with Police Forces - - they having evacuated all of the regular civilians but (like in the Dark Knight Rises batman movie) they are trapped in the terror mission zone now, and are little more than helpless civilians themselves. They might score a kill or two over the course of the mission, but you know how them aliens just love to toss alien grenades and go autofire with a plasma gun that does 80+ damage.



Quote
well keep in mind that x-com's default rifle only uses a 6.7mm round... i doubt that even a muton could hold up very well to a 50bmg

Compared to XCom weaponry a .50bmg is fairly weak, it doesn't even get out of the 40 damage range. Whoever made the Sniper Rifle Mod got the damage value correct (46 points). I guess an exploding tip .50bmg might cause something like 52 or 55 damage, but its going to still do armor piercing damage type.

The in-game Heavy Cannon is supposedly something like a (high pressure) 20mm or 25mm grenade launcher, and the armor piercing ammunition is likely some kind of incendiary-armor piercing-exploding tip round that does alot of nasty damage on a direct hit to compensate for its slower velocity (which warrants its 52 damage points).

For a real life example of this check out the XM-25 grenade launcher.
(Image Link)
(yeah I wouldnt want one pointed at me either)


The HWP Cannon does 60 and its probably firing a de-facto 20mm Cannon round like what the NTW-20 sniper rifle does (which the Halo Combat Evolved Sniper Rifle was patterned after).

(this is a pic of a 20mm compared to a .50cal --- Image Link)

Last time I checked Mutons could take like 5 to 10 shots from stuff like that, and thats if they dont turn around and Reaction-Fire on the guy shooting them and put three blazing plasma rifle holes in them.


(and speaking of Halo Combat Evolved, almost none of those weapons the aliens use even come close to doing what XCom's plasma weapons do. The Halo "Beam Rifle" or "Binary Rifle" might do like 70 damage at most and that tears Master Chief in half as it is. The plasma pistols and plasma rifles that the Covenant use dish out like 35-40 damage at most, though I guess they would still count as causing plasma damage type, gotta give them that. I mean look at how awesome the Rocket Launcher is in Halo Combat Evolved? That weapon does 100 damage in Xcom)

The Plasmacastor from Predator is what im always reminded of when I think of Xcom Plasma Guns . . . 80 damage probably, and I think it could be said that weapon had a small blast radius attached to it.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 01:29:25 am by RSSwizard »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2014, 05:33:56 pm »
@Police Forces:
This has been proposed by Warboy years ago and is really nothing new... Xenonauts have them... No idea why the police would carry stun rods and pistols though, they'd probably at least grab M16s/AK-74s from their armories, and solid-slug equipped shotguns at the very least, before going into combat (swat armor in richer countries, rpgs/armored vehicles in USA/UK, no armor in poorer countries); only a handful of them are likely to fight with pistols and other street-issue weapons. Extra damage from HE makes no sense, though, poor/nonexistent under armor + civilian-level health (25-35) would get them killed or greviously wounded even by a close-miss of a grenade. Not even mentioning the nagging question HOW XCom agents are 2x more resistant to HE, only bomb-disposal squad armor provides some protection against blast wave, even level IV personal armor is pretty much helpless (it'll stop shrapnel, but not the blast wave). By the looks of it, XCom wears Level II at the very most.

@Damage calculations:
While your logic and numbers seem sound, you don't take some additional factors into consideration, like weapon's penetration and aiming. It's the law of averages; sniper rifles get higher damage since the shooters are more likely to score a headshot, or at the very least aim at the centre of the mass. Shots from assault rifles are usually less aimed and tend to hit less vulnerable parts of the body, so the average goes down. And there is the issue of penetration which isn't the same as raw damage; some weapons have good penetration but do not cause nearly as much tissue damage as a Black Talon round fired from .50 Desert Eagle; again, this has to be averaged in.

My sniper rifle causes 45 damage, but it was never assumed to be .50 bmg; in that case, it'd deal 60 or so probably. But there is no practical way to simulate in the game that it's basically impossible to fire a .50 rifle while moving around. Maybe by giving it over 90% TU cost, but that wouldn't be popular...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2014, 05:47:23 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Vulgar Monkey

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2014, 08:06:53 pm »
I'd accept that.
As is I always treated the old vanilla heavy cannon as a weird 8bit approximation of a 50cal anyway, since the behaviour was somewhere between that and a GL. Problem with the HC was that the expensive firing cost wasnt offset by accuracy, just damage, so it was rarely that useful. A heavy sniper that is somewhat reliable for a single kill per turn if previously set up appropriately, but useless in most other cases, seems totally fair.

Offline KingMob4313

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 10:22:37 pm »
@Police Forces:
This has been proposed by Warboy years ago and is really nothing new... Xenonauts have them... No idea why the police would carry stun rods and pistols though, they'd probably at least grab M16s/AK-74s from their armories, and solid-slug equipped shotguns at the very least, before going into combat (swat armor in richer countries, rpgs/armored vehicles in USA/UK, no armor in poorer countries); only a handful of them are likely to fight with pistols and other street-issue weapons. Extra damage from HE makes no sense, though, poor/nonexistent under armor + civilian-level health (25-35) would get them killed or greviously wounded even by a close-miss of a grenade. Not even mentioning the nagging question HOW XCom agents are 2x more resistant to HE, only bomb-disposal squad armor provides some protection against blast wave, even level IV personal armor is pretty much helpless (it'll stop shrapnel, but not the blast wave). By the looks of it, XCom wears Level II at the very most.


Invading high conflict areas would be troublesome for the alien forces, for while civilians/local-forces wouldn't be fielding body armor, they might be fielding mortars and RPG rockets, which would also lead to high rates of hilarity.  Could you imagine a terror site in conflict torn Lebanon or Somalia?

But yeah, from my estimation, the X-com teams for some reason and wandering around with Level II or IIIA at most, which brings up the idea behind the tactical armor mods.  Though, I can see the logic behind the lighter armor being: the heavier armor isn't stopping plasma shots anyways, so let's just protect from explosive fragments and the like.

Offline RSSwizard

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2014, 11:31:04 pm »
Quote
But yeah, from my estimation, the X-com teams for some reason and wandering around with Level II or IIIA at most, which brings up the idea behind the tactical armor mods.
@KingMob - What I gathered was that X-Com teams require high maneuverability, agility, and flexibility and they cannot be weighed down with bulky armor. Just look at the impact it has on your performance when you have a guy carrying too much stuff and he loses 25-35% of his TU.

One nice modification would be researchable armor like the Talon system - borderline nanotechnology - with liquid armor that hardens when shot. That would give armor that was flexible and light enough but comparable to Alloy Armor against certain damage types. But the Alloy Armor is still better because the Talon system wouldnt give good protection against anything heat related (plasma, laser).


Quote
but it was never assumed to be .50 bmg
@Dioxine
The Sniper Rifle Mod states clearly in the ufopaedia text that it is 12.7mm (which any day of the week is a .50cal). This being the sniper rifle mod that is in the Top 10 downloads slot on OpenXcom's mod hosting venue.
Screenshot From Mod Site

And its true that a .50 isnt necessarily a .50bmg . . . but thats what most people assume when they see that. Either that or 12.7x108mm russian which is a hair bit worse (by about 1500 ft-lbs).

Alternative .50cal rifles such as .50 Beowulf and the 12.7mm VSSK are obscure newcomers on the scene. And the .50 AE is known widely to be the "desert eagle bullet" and not associated with precision Rifle shooting in any way.

Im aware of the difference between penetration and damage, and I am happy that you are too.  :)

In my own game systems im designing (predominantly RPG at this point) I have both stats. I tend to run penetration as a "compare vs armor, then assign a damage penalty". That way you can have armor that provides no protection whatsoever because the penetration was too high, or armor that stops all the damage completely. And for things that don't stop shots, they still contribute somewhat against Overpenetration.

For example a .50bmg in mine does AP 10, compared to a 5.56mm which does AP 7 and just about any other standard pistol or shotgun does AP 4. (an armor piercing bullet adds 1)

What is the difference compared to armor rating?
Every point of armor rating over the AP imposes a -1 damage point per die (basically -20% damage, after its rolled, and it scales with critical hit damage too). After about a difference of 4 or more it just hand-waives that the armor stops the shot completely, that armor is invincible against that weapon unless the shooter makes a called shot for a weakpoint.

Likewise if the AP = AR it gets no damage reduction. So a light kevlar vest might have like AR 7 which means a 5.56mm goes right through it. But it imposes -3 damage per die against a Glock9mm or Shotgun. Considering the damage dice are all some small pile of d10s which average about 5 points each thats most of the damage, and a fair bit of the time it will do 0.


Quote
so it was rarely that useful
@Vulgar Monkey - True, its just that we're handed these items as players and told to "have fun" and figure out how to use them on our own. So we come up with different strategies.

Me for example, I always use the Heavy Cannon as a multi-shot grenade launcher. As mama always said close counts when it comes to shotguns, and grenades. And its faster than tossing a Grenade so I always use HE rounds (and at least up until OpenXcom, you had to wait until the end of the turn for a grenade to go off). I always give the guy using it a Laser Pistol or comparable sidearm so he can shoot someone point blank without blowing himself up.

In TFTD I usually keep some AP rounds with him too. Because of all the close quarters action in that game and the numerous opportunities to close into close quarters, firing at someone only 4-5 spaces away makes up for the bad accuracy. But in TFTD the Gas Cannon is the way to go because the Autocannon equivalent only works underwater . . . so I might have 3 guys equipped with Gas Cannons (two of them using HE, one who is using AP and maneuvering for close range).

Against Floaters and Sectoids, who are some of the most common enemies in the game, Poor Accuracy is offset by "if I get it within 2 squares of the guy he's dead". Plus it works marvellously towards getting rid of grass, hedges, fences, and blowing a hole in the side of a brick wall. Then the Sniper Guy I have armed with a good accuracy weapon has a line of fire into somewhere (but the Sniper usually has a Rocket Launcher with a pile of Large Rockets, so that way close really does count).

For me the only weapon which makes the Heavy Cannon obsolete is the Heavy Plasma because I can just autofire until I hit something, one shot does the job, and it does a good job of blowing holes in walls. I dont need blast radius anymore with that. And in TFTD everyone has 3 sonic pulsers, for the grenade relay from hell.

For high damage output early in the game I give someone an Autocannon with AP rounds and I sneak them in within about 10-12 squares, or closer if I can manage it. Then they take 42 twice or three times in a row. And if im afraid one shot wont do the job and I dont wanna risk it . . . I do a Hand Grenade Relay.


Small Launcher (or Thermal Shok Launcher) is nice but it doesnt blow holes in walls . . . and I much rather prefer the Extra Points I get for KILLING an alien (sometimes as many as 25) compared to Capturing it (which is always 10). Nevermind its slow as hell and doesn't have much ammo (two shots per 2x1 inventory space compared to 6, plus 15 TU reload after every single shot).

Often times I find myself moving a soldier over to the alien to use a Medi Kit to revive the sucker so that i can put a killing shot into them. And sometimes having to revive him again if he's stubborn. Because its hard as hell to coup-de-grace a Lobsterman with a grenade (alien or otherwise).

Its a pity you cant just do a Coup-De-Grace on something with a regular weapon.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Armoured cilivans?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2014, 12:53:14 am »
1. So the author of the original mod stated it's .50 cal round, and that makes it Holy Word how? Let's reply with an argument on a similar level: my mod is bigger, the sniper rifle deals 45 damage, and it doesn't say anything about the callibre... Oh, right, it has a DShK HMG, which calliber is known, an it deals... 55 damages. lol. My point was that 45 is, IMO, too low a number for a 12.7mm RIFLE round. It'd be too easily stopped by an armor designed to semi-reliably hold off power-30 rifle rounds.

2. Yes I do understand the difference between penetration and damage, strange as it might seem. Likewise I understand the difference between pistol and rifle rounds, and things in between and beyond. Since it's bragging mode on, I'm designing mods and RPG systems, and tabletop games, and board games for about 15 years now. Happens to be my hobby. This of course means precisely nothing as far as the discussion goes. However people aren't tanks, and their armor isn't uniform (well, it's not uniform even in tanks), so you also need to take into account hits falling on unprotected/underprotected areas, which means you need to err on the weapon, not armor's side, when calculating damage.
Also you haven't explained in what system your penetration values are calced; I can say I gave 4 to 5.56 FMJ and 9 to 12.7 FMJ but either of our systems has anything to do with OXcom... :) If anything, rifle rounds in OXcom should have Pen about 10 (if we assume vanilla pistol/rifle damage values are correct), and at least 20 for HMG rounds. By the rule of thumb, I think so.

3. The shotgun problem in OXcom has already been solved by giving them super-high accuracy (150% range) but a very severe snap/aimrange and dropoff.

4. However seems that you aren't even USING Ufoextender Accuracy, seeing by the comment about HPG autoshots. It's your way of doing things but without using it, balancing weapon accuracy in any semi-realistic way is impossible, and if we don't have the accuracy sorted, no point in even going into Penetration vs. Damage issue.

5. If you don't want aliens getting up after being shot by a lethal weapon, enable Alien Bleeding Wounds. Instant grenades, I do not use, I call it "casual mode".