Author Topic: [CORE] Research affecting ruleset  (Read 7682 times)

Offline Sharp

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[CORE] Research affecting ruleset
« on: November 13, 2013, 01:06:52 pm »
So I was wondering if it's possible to have research affect existing items in a ruleset, obviously not acting directly by physically modifying ruleset when research is complete but some type of way to have an object with one set of values but if certain research has been done then then the object can have different values.

Like in XCOM 2012 you can do a Foundry upgrade to improve pistol accuracy so I would imagine something in a ruleset like.

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_PISTOL
    size: 0.1
    costBuy: 800
    costSell: 600
    weight: 5
    bigSprite: 3
    floorSprite: 3
    handSprite: 96
    bulletSprite: 1
    fireSound: 4
    compatibleAmmo:
      - STR_PISTOL_CLIP
    accuracySnap: 60
    accuracyAimed: 78
    tuSnap: 18
    tuAimed: 30
    battleType: 1
    invWidth: 1
    invHeight: 2
    attraction: 1
    hasResearched:
     - IMP_PISTOL_ACCURACY_I
    accuracySnap: 70
    accuracyAimed: 88

    hasResearched:
     - IMP_PISTOL_ACCURACY_I
    accuracySnap: 70
    accuracyAimed: 88

being the addition so the research would increase pistol accuracy by 10.

If this works it could be used to improve existing items with research, it can also do other stuff done in XCOM 2012 like autopsies and interrogations providing bonuses, maybe lower research costs for other research, maybe lowering alien health to simulate increased knowledge of aliens weak points etc...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 05:06:06 pm by Sharp »

Offline Qpoter

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Re: Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2013, 04:02:44 am »
As a core game feature, this would add strategic value. However, it doesn't make much sense that aliens suddenly become physically weaker once you find out their weak points. Weapon upgrades would be rather neat, but pretty useless for conventional weapons (bullet-based weapons) since you stick with them for only one month (don't tell me I'm the only one that ditches Rifles and Cannons in February).

EDIT: Weapon upgrades are useful in making the jump between weapon types more gradual. Having improved Heavy Lasers (85 dmg -> 100) would make the jump to Heavy Plasma not seem so wide (100 -> 115 as compared to 85 -> 115).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 04:08:04 am by Qpoter »

Offline Warboy1982

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Re: Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2013, 04:10:45 am »
unless one were to say... adjust the resistances of the aliens to make certain races more (or less) vulnerable to AP damage.

Offline Sharp

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Re: Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2013, 05:05:53 pm »
However, it doesn't make much sense that aliens suddenly become physically weaker once you find out their weak points.

Just an example of what could be done with the ability, anyway the point is to simulate using advanced knowledge of aliens to inflict damage, trying to simulate it by increasing weapon damage would be affecting all aliens.

The idea is to facilitate mods not be a mod itself directly.

Offline xracer

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Re: Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2013, 10:06:41 pm »
unless one were to say... adjust the resistances of the aliens to make certain races more (or less) vulnerable to AP damage.

and allow aliens to have armor, it would be like first aliens are recon aliens not a "fighting force" but as the game progresses aliens can wear armor specially the sectiods and snakeman :)after all they have the technology why wouldn't they have armor?

I wrote somewhere about skin enhancements or maybe bio-mechanical armor like in the movie Independence Day.   

Offline Sharp

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Re: Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2013, 12:19:40 am »
and allow aliens to have armor, it would be like first aliens are recon aliens not a "fighting force" but as the game progresses aliens can wear armor specially the sectiods and snakeman :)after all they have the technology why wouldn't they have armor?

Hmm not sure of a good way to do it with this idea, I mean one easy way is when researching some ability it unlocks harder aliens like researching power armour allows power armour mutons (mutons with more armour) but then it's pretty easy to avoid by just not researching some stuff unless your ready for it, although having it tied to good stuff like power armour or heavy plasma would definitely be a tough choice when choosing to research stuff, makes it more like EU2012 as instead of alien progress just naturally increasing it is tied to specific game progress events.


Offline Arpia

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Re: [CORE] Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2013, 01:17:17 am »
I imagine you can simulate 'alien progression' by adding several versions of the same alien race to a ruleset. for example, you have:
alienRaces:
  - id: STR_SECTOID
    members:
      - STR_SECTOID_COMMANDER
      - STR_SECTOID_LEADER
      - STR_SECTOID_ENGINEER
      - STR_SECTOID_MEDIC
      - STR_SECTOID_NAVIGATOR
      - STR_SECTOID_SOLDIER
      - STR_CYBERDISC_TERRORIST
      - STR_CYBERDISC_TERRORIST
you could simply change this to be [STR_SECTOID0] this is wave one.
the next wave [STR_SECTOID1] introduced after x months will feature say... leaders instead of navigators - aka the threat of psi in standard ufo's, not just terror/base missions. and soldiers with actual armor, maybe introduce the player to celatids as well as giving them cyberdisks or something? and after x months, this new sectoid loadout fully replaces the original.

just my thoughts.

Offline Sharp

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Re: [CORE] Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2013, 01:38:55 am »
Yeah, that is a way that can be done currently with rulesets, not really much to do with research affecting rulesets though :P

Offline Arpia

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Re: [CORE] Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2013, 01:57:41 am »
true, but.. we can do this kind of thing in the mean time. When/if you *could* link things to research progression, you can use this method. just replacing after x months with, after x research.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [CORE] Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 07:33:45 pm »
I do like the feature of research that improves existing items, but actual implementation of it will always be controversial. Bonus against aliens is unjustified, like explained above, and besides most aliens have similar anatomy to us, so extensive research won't help the soldiers much ("When dealing with a Sectoid, aim at the head!" "Gee, thanks professor, that's so helpful."). And I'm not sure how X-Com researchers could ever improve our firearms, something that's been perfected over the last few centuries. New weapons are, of course, possible, as long as they use new physics or materials (see the alien alloys ammo mod).

As for armour for aliens:
Sectoids already have power armours, called Cyberdiscs :D Yers, they perform that role exactly. And Sectoid footsoldiers also wear decent armour, since they rarely go down from just one bullet despite being physically frail.
Mutons seem to be cheap, mass-produced cannon fodder, so giving them expensive, complicated power armours would be rather illogical.
Floaters: the same as Mutons.
Snakeman: yes, possibly. Snakemen seem to be the most "normal" race, anyway; they reproduce and probably have some sort of culture.
Ethereals: viable, but do wee really want this to happen? :D

Offline Sharp

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Re: [CORE] Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 11:35:14 am »
I do like the feature of research that improves existing items, but actual implementation of it will always be controversial. Bonus against aliens is unjustified, like explained above, and besides most aliens have similar anatomy to us, so extensive research won't help the soldiers much ("When dealing with a Sectoid, aim at the head!" "Gee, thanks professor, that's so helpful."). And I'm not sure how X-Com researchers could ever improve our firearms, something that's been perfected over the last few centuries. New weapons are, of course, possible, as long as they use new physics or materials (see the alien alloys ammo mod).

As for armour for aliens:
Sectoids already have power armours, called Cyberdiscs :D Yers, they perform that role exactly. And Sectoid footsoldiers also wear decent armour, since they rarely go down from just one bullet despite being physically frail.
Mutons seem to be cheap, mass-produced cannon fodder, so giving them expensive, complicated power armours would be rather illogical.
Floaters: the same as Mutons.
Snakeman: yes, possibly. Snakemen seem to be the most "normal" race, anyway; they reproduce and probably have some sort of culture.
Ethereals: viable, but do wee really want this to happen? :D

Well the main point is to allow interesting mods, the balance is up to the modder, personally I think it would be interesting to give some actual use to alien autopsies because right now they aren't actually useful for gameplay although they are nice to have in the ufopaedia anyway.

Also XCom Scientists seem to be pretty damn smart seeing as they can develop laser weapons, med kits and motion scanners themselves, I'm sure they could do some minor improvements to Earth weapons with alien research, not necessarily just elerium/alloys.

Alien armours aren't part of this suggestion though but I am interested in that to make the game more difficult as a separate mod because once you have power armour your soldiers are tougher then everything except cyberdiscs and sectopods.

One thing the suggestion of research affecting ruleset would be is to allow interesting research choices that other threads have suggested, I believe one idea is to have researching plasma pistols to then make researching plasma rifles and heavy plasma rifles quicker which could be done with this. Also like I said before it's up to the modder but not all the research would have to be a bonus, some might make aliens tougher, like researching 'Cydonia or Bust' makes all aliens tougher to give more of a challenge in the final mission or just to ramp up difficulty as you get access to some of the nice goodies, like research heavy plasma rifle and clip and then all aliens get +10 armour.

Whatever the choice whether bonus or malus or a combination of both I think the idea as a whole would be nice and allow modders to do a lot more to make the game interesting.

Offline BlackLibrary

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Re: [CORE] Research affecting ruleset
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 03:19:14 pm »
I do like the idea and did something similar in an aftermod.   

I allowed research of depleted uranium.  This allowed creation of DU AP Slugs and shells for the shotgun and the tank.  I simply changed the damage type of the weapon to laser.  Allows for continued use of the shotgun post February, as well as the tank.  (I normally bypass Laser tanks with HV Plasma tanks.  Allows conventional tanks to stay of value a bit longer.)

I could see the value in research that upgrades Medi-Kits and existing armor.  I'm doing a current mod that creates a range of batteries for man portable laser weapons.  Thats based on research done that affects research, bringing the laser which requires no ammo, to a series of new batteries that up its value based on alien tech research...extending its combat value in exchange for the "no ammo required" boon.  Having some difficulties with that mod though.  :)