aliens

Author Topic: Is the realistic accuracy/cover mod a better way to play BrutalAI? Sneaky AI?  (Read 188 times)

Offline xenoroyal

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i plan on playing on the AI setting of 2.

I was considering using the accuracy/cover mod, and using sneaky AI so the AI would use cover too and not leeroy charge across fields while my guys are all setup in the first building/cover by drop zone.

Im predicting TFTD og where you setup and camp as entire enemy force bum rushes you.  If im using the cover system, and the ai isnt, it will be a turkey shoot.  like in the accuracy mod video where the guys in behind cover kill the mutons in the field.

i figured i could get cover and just let them swarm me and die in fields
i figured if i used sneaky AI, we'd be fighting cover to cover and it would be more intense

what is your experience?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2025, 07:51:51 am by xenoroyal »

Offline Xilmi

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What exactly do you mean with "AI setting of 2"?

The important setting for "cover to cover fights" is the "Aggressiveness"-setting in Advanced=>BOXCE=>AI.

It needs to be "0" or "1".

"2" means the AI will just try to end their turn in cover but does not consider the movement of your units. So they will leave their own cover, when you leave line of sight.
"3" means the AI will run towards where it thinks (or knows) your units are without any consideration of cover at all.

The "Sneaky AI" option doesn't have all that much impact. It messes with the path-finding by making pathes that go through the players current vision-radius less attractive. So when there's several alternatives to get to a position the AI will prefer the one where it's not seen.

However, "Brutal-AI" is not really meant to be played in conjunction with "Sneaky-AI". It might even make the AI miscalculate moves. As in: It thinks it can reach a certain position but then it takes a detour and has less TUs left than it though it would.

So I recommend to leave "Sneaky AI" and set Advanced=>BOXCE=>AI=>Aggressiveness to "1".

This is the strongest setting available in that regard and will make the AI do cover to cover fights.

Offline xenoroyal

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Quote
What exactly do you mean with "AI setting of 2"?
"Targeting behaviour for Brutal AI" =>
2 => AI units can also attack whatever any of their friends see."

i plan on using that.  so im wondering now if the game would best be played normally or with advanced cover/accuracy mod.

Thank you for telling me sneaky AI wouldnt work well with the mod.   My concern is, I give myself a huge advantage with advanced cover mod while the AI makes no use of it.  I thought sneaky AI would push them into using cover more.  I dont want to give myself an insane advantage. 

with your experience, would playing on targeting behavior 2 with advanced cover/accuracy mod be too easy?  Im looking for a challenge harder than superhuman (I do not use PSI) but allow them to use it normally.  Im thinking the cover mod would need its own ai to go with it to really reach full potential.   otherwise its just like in his demo video.  4 soldiers in cover turkey shooting  mutons in a field

so what do you think?  is it just too advantageous to be able to camp behind walls and skyranger legs and makes it too easy?

thank you for explaining what aggresion 2 and 3 would do.   but whats the difference between 1 and 0?  i planned on using 0 initially with no knowledge

Offline jnarical

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That video is like 1 year old or something. Its sole point was to show what gunfight looks like when units shoot in targets’ direction, unlike it was in the original game. Can’t say for sure but most probably Brutal AI was disabled. You won’t experience such dumb behaviour from current BAI version until you crank up aggressiveness to max level.

And please don’t overestimate cover - if you’re targeting heavily covered unit with auto-fire from close to midrange, and get for example 5% chance to hit due to cover - that means that with good probability first shot will hit and destroy the cover, and all next shots will go straight to the target with full accuracy. RA makes game more “tactical” cause you have to manoeuvre, moving every time your cover got destroyed.

Offline xenoroyal

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cool thanks for the insight

anyone else whos played with/without cover/accuracy mod would be appreciated


Also Xilmi, I appreciate you answering its very graceful. feel free not to answer but two years ago a guy said "Damn, I was just looking for a nice UFO Defence challenge above Superhuman. I'm definitely going to completely disable cheatTurn for this. "Smart AI that doesn't cheat" is a hard thing to make work, but it's what I love."
 and you responded
Quote
Xilmi
Team member

2y ago
I guess I shall look into improving the search-pattern for the non-cheating AI for when they don't know any of your unit's positions. Currently it's rather random. I think it should probably be more systematic about that.

that was two years ago, I am assuming when you talk about non cheating AI you are talking about Bug Hunt mode?  Did you ever get around to making Bug Hunt aliens a little smarter at searching for and finding Xcom agents?  Perhaps they communicate with eachother or something in Bug Hunt mode now?  maybe they communicate the heat maps or something?  ur reply was a long time ago and i just wondered if u improved it .  im wondering if half the aliens will be randomly wandering around mindlessly while a big firefight is going down, instead of moving to help their team in the fight.   like, if they had radio coms or something

i promise i wont ask any more questions, its just you basically made X-Com 2.  Brutal AI almost needs it on ufopaedia on how some of the features work, but you've done enough work already! 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2025, 09:06:12 am by xenoroyal »

Offline Xilmi

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with your experience, would playing on targeting behavior 2 with advanced cover/accuracy mod be too easy?
No. I'm not a pro at this game by any means but I could easily beat vanilla Super-Human while I struggle really hard with BAI enabled.
It really is a lot harder than what you'll be used to!

There is certain things that make it easier. Most people who use advanced cover/accuracy mod also enable extender-accuracy. And extender accuracy makes the game easier due to shifting a lot of power towards explosives. In vanilla the aliens rarely have grenades, especially early on. So you are nerfing their shooting-weapons with these settings while you can compensate by using grenades.

Since you mentioned something about TFTD, however, that's not so much the case because the AI also gets a lot of grenades early on that they can use.

Using Cover-mod without also using extender-accuracy, however does not make it significantly easier. Maybe a little bit.

Im looking for a challenge harder than superhuman (I do not use PSI) but allow them to use it normally.
This is actually available as mod in BOXCE. It's the mod called Brutal-AI: It disables the research-option for the PSI-weapons but you can still use labs to filter your units for who is good defensively against PSI. I made this both for Vanilla and TFTD. In TFTD it changes the score-threshold from -300 to -500 to make the first 2 months a little easier even because I could otherwise never make it past them. Terror-missions in TFTD against Brutal-AI really are very hard.

otherwise its just like in his demo video.  4 soldiers in cover turkey shooting  mutons in a field

so what do you think?  is it just too advantageous to be able to camp behind walls and skyranger legs and makes it too easy?
The situation you saw in the demo-video will not happen when you play on Aggression 0 or 1. Aliens will not be "in a field" if they can help it. They will always seek out cover and either end their turn after dealing a lot of damage to you or in cover. They will usually stay in buildings or their UFO and wait for you to be out in the field or leave your cover.

whats the difference between 1 and 0?  i planned on using 0 initially with no knowledge
Brutal AI usually has 3 phases in their actions. A seeking-phase, an attacking phase and a repositioning/hiding phase.
The attacking-phase works the same regardless of aggressiveness: If they know about something they can attack, they will do so.
The seeking- and repositioning-phases differ between all aggressivenesses:
3 has no repositining-phase. They will spend all of their TUs for seeking and attacking. And if they don't find you, they will just seek.
0, 1 and 2 have a concept of cover. However, "2s" concept of cover is highly flawed and doesn't have any foresight. Just currently not being seen is good enough for them.
They will reserve TUs of their seeking-phase to go back to what they consider cover and spend at the very most half of their TUs for seeking.
The difference between 0 and 1 is what they do in their hiding/repositioning-phase:
0 will try to preserve as many TUs as possible to go back to cover. So if they think they are already in cover, they will remain where they are after the seeking-phase.
1 will try to get closer to the enemy while remaining in cover.
The difference in practice is, that on 0, aliens will remain mostly where they are spawned, as long as they seem the location save. They look around some corners and then end their turn. On 1, they will move towards "where the enemy is". So they will mostly go near the UFO-doors so they are better positioned to attack you on the next turn.

0 is a more vanilla-esque-feeling. You must search the enemies more because they will be more hidden. Chances are higher you'll walk in to reaction fire but you are more likely to have the numerical advantage in fire-fights.

1 is imho the overall strongest setting/best compromise when it comes to playing-strength. They still want to be in good cover but they want to position in places that allow them to attack you on their next turn. It is not uncommon that a soldier they spotted will be attacked by 5 or more aliens that are all in positions from where they can peek out, shoot and hide again. The disadvantage for them would be that they also give away a lot of their own positions that way.

So it's hard to say if 0 or 1 is really harder. I'd say it depends.

Oh, and if it isn't difficult enough for you, you can enable "Bug hunt mode for AI".
The AI's ability to find your units on their turn and find good cover is much better when they actually know (via cheating) where your units are on the minimap as opposed of having to make educated guesses. ;)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2025, 01:10:46 pm by Xilmi »

Offline Xilmi

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"Damn, I was just looking for a nice UFO Defence challenge above Superhuman. I'm definitely going to completely disable cheatTurn for this. "Smart AI that doesn't cheat" is a hard thing to make work, but it's what I love."
 and you responded
that was two years ago, I am assuming when you talk about non cheating AI you are talking about Bug Hunt mode?  Did you ever get around to making Bug Hunt aliens a little smarter at searching for and finding Xcom agents?  Perhaps they communicate with eachother or something in Bug Hunt mode now?  maybe they communicate the heat maps or something?  ur reply was a long time ago and i just wondered if u improved it .  im wondering if half the aliens will be randomly wandering around mindlessly while a big firefight is going down, instead of moving to help their team in the fight.   like, if they had radio coms or something

i promise i wont ask any more questions, its just you basically made X-Com 2.  Brutal AI almost needs it on ufopaedia on how some of the features work, but you've done enough work already!
There is no "randomly wandering aorund mindlessly" in BAI. Whether you use bug-hunt-mode or not. The aliens always "communicate with eachother". That was pretty much the point of all of this. They play like a team just like the player plays their soldiers. If one alien spots one of your units all of the aliens know where your unit is and they calculate if they can attack them and where the best hiding-spots relative to the units, they have knowledge of, are.

The bug-hunt-mode differs in the sense that they don't need to spot your units in order to know whether they can move to a place from where they can attack them or where they can avoid being found on your next turn. With how good the AI is at determining good hiding-spots, I'd say giving the AI bug-hunt-mode is even a bit too much of an advantage.

And even harder than that is using fire-mode 4. This is not just knowing where your units are on the map, it's seeing them all the time.

The biggest improvement over the version from the time that post you cited likely is from, is the complete revamp of the cover-detection-logic. It is really sophisticated now and actually takes a considerable amount of processing power.
Because on Aggressiveness 0 and 1 they basically think one move ahead to determine how good cover-locations are.

This helps both the cheating- and non-cheating variant tremendously to stay save. It helps the cheating one even more. A common technique against the non-cheating one is to let them know a few of your units you keep in good cover and then flank them from behind. However, the seeking-logic has also be improved to check for potential flanks. But it's not perfect.
With cheating you can't surprise flank-them. They don't have to expend TUs in order to check if they are being flanked.

Basically the 3 phases I mentioned earlier:
seeking-phase, attacking phase and repositioning/hiding phase

There is no seeking-phase when bug-hunt is active. They don't have to expend TUs to look around because they already know where you are. They just attack or reposition.

You can try to replay the same mission with and without that enabled to see if you need the increased difficulty of the aliens always knowing where you are to make it challenging.

Also: I don't mind your questions at all. For open-source-developers questions, feedback and let's-plays is all they get as reward for their efforts! ;)
« Last Edit: April 06, 2025, 01:34:33 pm by Xilmi »

Offline Xilmi

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I did some testing with the bug-hunt-mode and it actually does some things that can be considered less smart.

Mostly going for attacks that are likely to fail and leave the unit in a vulnerable position.

Sometimes there's some odd angle from where you can attack a unit through a window or so. And the AI knows this angle exists because it knows your unit is there. So it goes for it and does it's 13% shot just to not have enough TU to go back somewhere safe.

So technically there's room for improvement in that regard. Probably better not to take all possible attacks.

Edit: Upon further investigation: That's not what happened. The AI already has safeguards against exposing itself like that. But there was another mechanism, which I had forgotten: The reaction to the enemies' panic. Seeing units on the enemies' team panick bumps up the AI's aggression-level because players usually tend to flee when their soldiers panick. This way the AI tries to capitalize on the panic.

So it's working as intended afterall.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:18:42 am by Xilmi »