Arrow unlocking

[sheaim]

Arrow 105 being gated behind VIP, Top Secred Files and EXALT Masters makes getting Skyraider before promo III an entirely RNG endeavour, making the craft itself basically useless.

I think it should come earlier or have more sources to get it from.

[Juku121]

Well, there are entire game-critical arc progression points that are essentially the same kind of RNG-dependent progression, so...

I've usually gotten either the VIP or the files from either the League or some random cultist stash, early enough to get the Skyraider before the Skyranger. Not all that much earlier, though.

[psavola]

Well, Skyraider also requires Alien Power Systems, i.e., getting lucky with some alien mission spawn (like military shot down a ufo) while already having built alien containment from some other source (e.g. a deep one corpse).

Kitsune is superior and you can quite reliably get it earlier than Sky*. Kitsune is also much better protected against enemy vision on you in turn 1, so Sky* can lead to nasty situations and having to abort the mission, while Kitsune would be just fine. All in all, Sky* are essentially useless (and/or Kitsune is overpowered).

EDIT this also should be moved to the arrow unlocking thread.

[Rag]

Am I missing something about the Arrow and Skyraider being connected? I tried looking at the research tree and didn't see them sharing stuff or is there an event that links them or something?

The alien power systems prerequisite is the thing that ends up locking me from getting the Skyraider before promotion 3 as the alien researched to unlock it also gives alien origins for promotion 3 at the same time so by the time I could manufacture the Skyraider I'd already have Skyranger available... and then I'd be unsure of making that compared to waiting for improved Skyranger or Kitsune which could also show up around same time.

The first time i played I got lucky enough to get the Arrow before promotion 3 but only got to use it against 1 target which I had to savescum to meet in time due to its slow speed and range, it seemed very limited in its usefulness sadly.

[Juku121]

Scramjet Engine, which connects Arrow and Skyraider.

Waiting for the Skymarshall is not so good, since it needs alloys which are (or at least used to be) in short supply. And getting all the research and manufacturing done is also going to take some time. Better get your fast transport going until the Kitsune shows up.



I'm not sure what's the vision disadvantage of Sky-craft that psavola is talking about in the main thread. Skyranger, mayyybe. Skyraider has those nifty side doors, and Skymarshall is kind of like a fortress compared to the giant back ramp opening the Kitsune has. I'm pretty sure there are more firing angles into that craft than even the original death coffin has.

[psavola]

I'm not sure what's the vision disadvantage of Sky-craft that psavola is talking about in the main thread. Skyranger, mayyybe. Skyraider has those nifty side doors, and Skymarshall is kind of like a fortress compared to the giant back ramp opening the Kitsune has. I'm pretty sure there are more firing angles into that craft than even the original death coffin has.

All sky* crafts' rear end is open-ended. Unless the craft spawns near the right edge of the map, there is roughly 45 degree angle where the enemy units facing the craft can see inside and the first rows of your units at turn 1. This is a huge disadvantage. Even if you deploy smoke immediately, the spotter units have already seen you and snipers can shoot or grenade your units. Grenading your loot pile? Niiiiiceeeee. Maybe Skymarshall is slightly better because it has a funky thing at its rear end.

Contrast to kitsune, where you can throw out two smokes off the side of the ramp at turn 1 and end the turn. Usually nobody can see you for the first turn, and will very rarely come close in the second.  Only missions with huge number of enemies (like communion of apocalypse) or with PSI vision are sometimes an issue. Kitsune is even very good for camping, for example, to deliberately trigger MIB 10/15-turn reinforcements in the farmer missions, and obtain all the nice loot the reinforcement MIBs have.

[Rag]

Scramjet Engine, which connects Arrow and Skyraider.
Waiting for the Skymarshall is not so good, since it needs alloys which are (or at least used to be) in short supply. And getting all the research and manufacturing done is also going to take some time. Better get your fast transport going until the Kitsune shows up.

Ah that sounds cool, I just started a new run and got top secret files as my free item so will try see how early that would let me get a Skyraider out or if it will still end up being relatively late due to the other requirements

All sky* crafts' rear end is open-ended. Unless the craft spawns near the right edge of the map, there is roughly 45 degree angle where the enemy units facing the craft can see inside and the first rows of your units at turn 1. This is a huge disadvantage. Even if you deploy smoke immediately, the spotter units have already seen you and snipers can shoot or grenade your units. Grenading your loot pile? Niiiiiceeeee. Maybe Skymarshall is slightly better because it has a funky thing at its rear end.

Contrast to kitsune, where you can throw out two smokes off the side of the ramp at turn 1 and end the turn. Usually nobody can see you for the first turn, and will very rarely come close in the second.  Only missions with huge number of enemies (like communion of apocalypse) or with PSI vision are sometimes an issue. Kitsune is even very good for camping, for example, to deliberately trigger MIB 10/15-turn reinforcements in the farmer missions, and obtain all the nice loot the reinforcement MIBs have.

I was always unsure which crafts would be best to camp in, I do remember liking the automatic side doors of either the Skyraider or Skymarshal forgot which last time I played to shoot out of, I loved the lifts of the Lightning but didn't end up using it unless needed to due to the low troop count. One bonus to the Kitsune I remembered doing was hiding inside the interior doors, but that is probably not ideal due to the last resort nature of it but it helped on a few missions where I really didn't want to leave the ship and went full reaction fire on anyone who opened the door

Farming MIB reinforcements on farmer missions was something I always considered but thought was too deadly to try, but the idea of camping inside the craft for it might be fun to try one day, just hoping they don't explode the gear tile

[Juku121]

I misremembered, while the Kitsune has an open hatch, your vanguard troops stand to the side and the wall right above the entrance blocks vision surprisingly effectively. You might be at a slight disadvantage due to enemies seeing your agents' legs, but it's only for close range. All the more reason for calling it OP.

Skymarshall's side doors and the tail blockage are quite nice, though, and the craft itself can provide total long-range cover after the initial phase is over, unlike Kitsune's and other Sky-crafts' legs. Kitsune's pilot compartment is not quite as useful as the side doors, although it enables different tactics.


I really like the Lightning, because there the enemy does have to come quite close to see you, and you can pop in and out like no tomorrow, both to ground level and up top. Not every mission needs two dozen agents.

[Rag]

Scramjet Engine, which connects Arrow and Skyraider.

Is there another step needed to unlock the Scramjet Engine or is it connected to an extra timer / event / research etc? As I finished making the Arrow and have Promotion 2, Dragonfly and Alien Engineering researched leaving just Alien Power Systems prerequsite left for the Skyraider but making the Arrow didn't seem to do anything to skip it. It is August 1997 incase a certain date is needed, I tried waiting to the end of the month but nothing triggered during the month or the start of the next month for it. I'm on the new 3.4 so if there are any changes it should be up to date.

[psavola]

I have no idea what Juku121 means with Scramjet Engine. There is also no (research) connection between ARROW and SKY*. I suppose he's just confused/misremembering things.

[Juku121]

Apparently, I had Facility Expansion accidentally still enabled when I looked at this. You wouldn't believe the mod list I have, just to check them out. Yeah, without that mod there's nothing to link the two.

Since sheaim made it sound like there is a link, perhaps they're also using that mod?

[Rag]

I have no idea what Juku121 means with Scramjet Engine. There is also no (research) connection between ARROW and SKY*. I suppose he's just confused/misremembering things.

Ah was worried that would be the case thanks. Ah well at least it was fun to see how early I could get an Arrow out, hopefully a cult manor pops up nearby so I can show up to a humvee / helicopter fight with an interceptor, that'll teach em.

Apparently, I had Facility Expansion accidentally still enabled when I looked at this. You wouldn't believe the mod list I have, just to check them out. Yeah, without that mod there's nothing to link the two.

Since sheaim made it sound like there is a link, perhaps they're also using that mod?

I should try out some of the additional mods for the main mod at some point outside of just the resound mod as that one does sound fun, its interesting to see how people tweek things like that just sadly ended up making me confused, I didn't see it mentioned in-game or on data viewer so I was thinking it sounded fishy but still wanted to give it a try

[Juku121]

IMO, Ksenni's sound mod is terrific and SL's Remusic is pretty good. But music tends to be more a matter of taste.

[SickBoySid]

Contrast to kitsune, where you can throw out two smokes off the side of the ramp at turn 1 and end the turn. Usually nobody can see you for the first turn, and will very rarely come close in the second.  Only missions with huge number of enemies (like communion of apocalypse) or with PSI vision are sometimes an issue. Kitsune is even very good for camping, for example, to deliberately trigger MIB 10/15-turn reinforcements in the farmer missions, and obtain all the nice loot the reinforcement MIBs have.

Ill actually farm the farm before promotion III with the sky raider if I spawn in the upper right corner, by tossing out land minds from the side hatches and use a mini gun then HMG combo to take out the tanks so it'll have tanks ready to go early invasion,

I try not to do the same thing every run but having early tanks is so nice on not mass loseing rookies

[Amoebka]

How would that even work? You still need tank/laser researched to repair broken MiB tanks, and if you do, why not manfacture your own. It's not like you'll ever need more than one.