Some information QoL improvements

[Juku121]

Come to think of it, while we're on the topic of base information QoL stuff, one thing that OXCE is likely not to revisit (don't recall if it's been explicitly rejected) that has bugged me for half of forever, is that all the base display info bars go off the right edge instead of scaling the bars according to their max value. No idea if that's something of interest to you.

Edit2: The same applies to craft equipment list icons, which also overflow really quickly and are thus mostly useless as information.  This could scale to 'maxItems' or 'maxStorageSpace', or some ruleset variable if these are not in use.

New thread, as requested. I recall Meridian advising modders to control the base storage bar via item size instead, so any of this probably won't be accepted into OXCE as is. I can see the reasoning, but I don't think his expectations of modder self-control are lining up with reality.

One issue is going to be the base background image with its hardcoded numbers. Probably not too hard to erase those.



Thoughts?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

One issue is going to be the base background image with its hardcoded numbers. Probably not too hard to erase those.

You are right about that. The background is a screen wide picture. I don't see how scale can be adjusted dynamically for a single bar.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

that all the base display info bars go off the right edge instead of scaling the bars according to their max value.

Anything can be done as long as the UI behavior clearly defined itself.
What is scaling based on max value? Do you mean bar is staying more less as is but the scale under it shrinks? That is definitely not usual for OXCE.

Would it be sufficient just to statically rescale some of them to fit for most common values? If someone can redraw a background, I can recode the scaling. Easy peasy.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Also I see your numbers are so big they don't even fit to the number space. That is more of a mod problem that allows it. I faced same in mine and ended up just reducing item sizes across the board so that standard storage capacity can accommodate more of them rather than building more storage facilities.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

For equipment bar I am not sure what it depicts. Is it a sum of all items "sizes" or a count? What use of this bar anyway? Why would I care how many items are on board?
Unless, of course, there is a limit. Then naturally the limit should be whole screen.

[Meridian]

Come to think of it, while we're on the topic of base information QoL stuff, one thing that OXCE is likely not to revisit (don't recall if it's been explicitly rejected) that has bugged me for half of forever, is that all the base display info bars go off the right edge instead of scaling the bars according to their max value.

Edit2: The same applies to craft equipment list icons, which also overflow really quickly and are thus mostly useless as information.

I don't remember discussing this.
Either didn't happen, or I wasn't there, or it was too long ago for my old memory.

In any case, it wasn't explicitly rejected (I'd remember that).

I recall Meridian advising modders to control the base storage bar via item size instead, so any of this probably won't be accepted into OXCE as is. I can see the reasoning, but I don't think his expectations of modder self-control are lining up with reality.

I don't recall advising that either, but it sounds like me, that's true.

Thoughts?

Sounds like an easy implementation to me... if someone can propose a good solution (with all above considerations considered).

You are right about that. The background is a screen wide picture. I don't see how scale can be adjusted dynamically for a single bar.

Scale can be removed altogether. Nobody reads the scale anyway (I think).

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Scale can be removed altogether. Nobody reads the scale anyway (I think).

Right. That is what I thought too.
For the same reason nobody also read actual value from the bar length, either. They are there for visual comparison purposes. Like how many available scientists I have out of all? Are there any idle ones?

With this in mind, it may make sense to draw bars in the form of percentage or something. Like scientist bar max is always same length (100%) and the value is the percentage.

[Juku121]

The background is a screen wide picture. I don't see how scale can be adjusted dynamically for a single bar.

Yeah, as Meridian said, removing the numbers altogether would be best. Perhaps making a ruleset option for 'no overflow' that switches to that alternate image.

What is scaling based on max value? Do you mean bar is staying more less as is but the scale under it shrinks?

I was imagining just rescaling the full/empty cutoff (which is the most important bit of info) and putting the rightmost edge of a 'max' bar at, IDK, 280 or 290. Small bars can stay as they are, anything over OG defaults (the background numbers) gets scaled down. Optionally, have a variable for each entry to define the 'soft max' (current 150/300/1150 or whatever the defence number is).

Also I see your numbers are so big they don't even fit to the number space. That is more of a mod problem that allows it. I faced same in mine and ended up just reducing item sizes across the board so that standard storage capacity can accommodate more of them rather than building more storage facilities.

Yeah, but that also applies to living space, radars, etc. I get it that rebalancing the mod is the way to go, but I've never had the willpower to periodically go through all the hundreds of items in XCF and change their sizes instead of just altering half a dozen values in facilities.rul, changing all the research and manufacture values instead of playing around with scientist/engineer capacity, etc.

For equipment bar I am not sure what it depicts. Is it a sum of all items "sizes" or a count?

I'm not sure, either, but it fills up really fast, usually at under 100 items, and I can have just that much ammo for 2-3 types of guns there. Less insane people than me will still easily break the 80-item limit. XCF used to have limits of 999 items a little while ago, but got rid of them for technical reasons.

What use of this bar anyway? Why would I care how many items are on board?
Unless, of course, there is a limit. Then naturally the limit should be whole screen.

There can be a limit. Two, in fact, 'maxItems' and 'maxStorageSpace'.

As far as usage goes, it's not something very useful, maybe for seeing whether you've accidentally removed your 10 000-strong alien-busting loadout in favour of 30 jumpsuits and purse pistols for a restrictive undercover op. But it's there, and tauntingly useless most of the time in its current incarnation.

Not sure what should happen if there's no limit defined for the craft. Maybe some preset variable for 'average' soldier loadout that defaults to something like [4-5]*[soldier capacity of the craft], or however much stuff people carry per soldier while playing vanilla UFO these days. 

I don't remember discussing this.
Either didn't happen, or I wasn't there, or it was too long ago for my old memory.

I don't recall advising that either, but it sounds like me, that's true.

Yeah, I can't find it either, not even the storage advice, although I definitely remember reading that.

In any case, it wasn't explicitly rejected (I'd remember that).

Sounds like an easy implementation to me... if someone can propose a good solution (with all above considerations considered).

Maybe we should try to hash out a solution here, and then make an OXCE feature request if it looks passable to a few people (and hopefully also at least one published modder)?


Edit:

With this in mind, it may make sense to draw bars in the form of percentage or something. Like scientist bar max is always same length (100%) and the value is the percentage.

Well, my proposal is to let small bases have smaller 'max' bars, but after a threshold number it'd be exactly that.

Values instead of percentages are still useful, I'd certainly like to know whether that '50%' is 200 scientists or 500.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

For transport load bar I would not do anything at all. In vanilla it probably helped to control load under 80 items. It is mostly useless now especially since there is a clear warning when you cannot add more items.

For base info bars I would convert them to percentage whenever two numbers are given. I.e. usage percentage. Just for visual check whether you have some spare or not. No scale needed.
Personnel and space are indicators are begging for that.
As for defense and radars, I have already proposed percentage display.


One note about personnel vs. space indicators. They are inverse. Personnel shows available and space shows used. Which is very confusing when I try to visually scan it. Does it make sense to show used/occupied personnel as well?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Edit:Well, my proposal is to let small bases have smaller 'max' bars, but after a threshold number it'd be exactly that.

Values instead of percentages are still useful, I'd certainly like to know whether that '50%' is 200 scientists or 500.

They sure are! And they are displayed as numbers for the purpose. As Meridian said, I doubt anyone is trying to deduce actual number by reading bar against the scale. They are for quick visual check mostly.

[Juku121]

For transport load bar I would not do anything at all. In vanilla it probably helped to control load under 80 items. It is mostly useless now especially since there is a clear warning when you cannot add more items.

One can still have that 80-item limit (or 1000, or 1 000 000). And you'll only know the limit when you hit it, not whether you're half-full, or mostly full, or whatever. So that functionality could be restored/extended.

The no-limit default does make proposing anything truly useful diffucult. It's just the wasted UI space/opportunity, cool icons and all, that annoys me.

For base info bars I would convert them to percentage whenever two numbers are given. I.e. usage percentage.

Do you mean bars as percentage while the left-hand values remain absolute?

Just for visual check whether you have some spare or not. No scale needed.

Absolute scale/numbers is still useful for comparing bases and deciding where to move your troops, scientists or whoever.

Personnel and space are indicators are begging for that.

Er, what?

As for defense and radars, I have already proposed percentage display.

Yep.

Does it make sense to show used/occupied personnel as well?

Doesn't bother me, the different bar colours and screen areas make them distinct enough, and there are probably lots of people heavily used to that. So I'd be wary, or at least make it an option.

They sure are! And they are displayed as numbers for the purpose. As Meridian said, I doubt anyone is trying to deduce actual number by reading bar against the scale. They are for quick visual check mostly.

Indeed.

What's your opinion about the small/large dichotomy?

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Do you mean bars as percentage while the left-hand values remain absolute?

The bar max value is always the same and denotes 100%. The value within the bar is the left to right ratio.
Similar to combined base radars detection chance.

Absolute scale/numbers is still useful for comparing bases and deciding where to move your troops, scientists or whoever.

Oh, they are. However, you yourself raised the question that it is difficult to find a good scale. With dynamic scale as you suggested, they are not comparable between bases anymore.

Er, what?

When I look at them I hear faint voices in my head: "... we want to be dissssplayed as persssentagggge ..."

What's your opinion about the small/large dichotomy?

Elaborate ...

[Juku121]

I'll just make my proposal into a picture.

Oh, they are. However, you yourself raised the question that it is difficult to find a good scale. With dynamic scale as you suggested, they are not comparable between bases anymore.

I propose using full dynamic scale only for bases that exceed current maximums. So it's as unintrusive as possible, and vanilla max values (on the background picture) seem like a reasonable compromise. Everything below that would still use current bars, more or less.

And retaining absolute numbers (available:total and used:total) for between-bases comparison.

Elaborate ...

The sad bit in the upper middle of the image.

When I look at them I hear faint voices in my head: "... we want to be dissssplayed as persssentagggge ..."

Resist the siren song of the number succubi!

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

I like most of your suggestions.

Not sure we need to actually display percentage number on the bar. Nobody needs an exact value. Besides, it is some additional programming mechanics. It is too much to support comparing to low criticality of this stuff.

Still not getting your "small/large dichotomy". Is it to dynamically scale beyond overflow?

My general inclination is to start simple by eliminating the most notorious problems and then add more features as needed.

[Juku121]

Well, I thought you wanted percentages? It's either lose some information by converting existing values to percentages, have numbers in the middle of the bars, or just have bars and absolute values and let the players judge the percentages themselves. Personally, I care more about knowing that I have 160/301 scientists and ~50% working scientists than knowing 53% are busy and there's some unknown number of them.

Small/large is leaving the small bars alone and only converting 'overflowing' bars into percentage bars. That is, doing the "Scale everything here :')" arrows or not.



Edit: Scaling the numbers on the bars is probably going to be hell, though.