Brutal-OXCE 8.3.4

[krakp]

A really cool concept indeed :-). Still - to me there is a high risk of creating write-only code this way, i.e. in 2 years nobody will know anymore what was meant by this pattern :-P.

I am more of a fan of good-ol' if style logic - not so pretty but still totally obvious 10 years later :-D

[bluth]

I'm currently playing XCOM Files with Brutal AI and I'm having a blast. I can see the opposition making very cool moves like peeking out, shooting a few rounds then going back to cover. Great stuff.

However, in most of the mission there is always one little fucker, often with only a melee weapon or a monster, that go into a corner and just wait here until I find him. I tried to activate Omniscience for th AI, in the hope that if this last guy knew were my troops were he would go toward them but no he just stay in his corner.

I guess this make sense tactically for him, if all my friends just got killed by some SWAT team and I just had an axe I would also hid behind my bed but it is becoming very tiresome. I basically had to alway kill this last guy with the command console or I lose too much time. But I dont like that.

Did I fuck up somewhere in installing or setting up the mod ? Is this a normal move for the AI ? Are there any solutions ?

Thanks !

[Xilmi]

I'm currently playing XCOM Files with Brutal AI and I'm having a blast. I can see the opposition making very cool moves like peeking out, shooting a few rounds then going back to cover. Great stuff.

However, in most of the mission there is always one little fucker, often with only a melee weapon or a monster, that go into a corner and just wait here until I find him. I tried to activate Omniscience for th AI, in the hope that if this last guy knew were my troops were he would go toward them but no he just stay in his corner.

I guess this make sense tactically for him, if all my friends just got killed by some SWAT team and I just had an axe I would also hid behind my bed but it is becoming very tiresome. I basically had to alway kill this last guy with the command console or I lose too much time. But I dont like that.

Did I fuck up somewhere in installing or setting up the mod ? Is this a normal move for the AI ? Are there any solutions ?

Thanks !

Thanks for the feedback!

In 8.3.0 I reintroduced Aggression-settings. I think the option is called "Aggression-mode for Brutal-AI" in "Options=>Advanced=>BOXCE=>AI" Those alter the behavior of the AI quite fundamentally.
0 is the default. This is the smartest setting but it also can be tedious to play against.
2 makes units be a lot less smart about being in cover by only considering the current situation and not thinking one move ahead anymore. This should prevent most of the hard-core-camping.
3 just makes them all rush to where they think you are or search your units aggressively when they don't know. So the units will never camp here. This could arguably make some missions even harder. Especially if you fight huge amounts of trashy units.

1 makes the behavior depend on the unit's aggression-setting. So it depends on the mod how they will behave. Note that a unit aggression of both 1 and 2 will lead to the same behavior as previously described under 2 for the overall-setting. And everything above 3 will also behave like "3".

My Idea was for the AI to be able to shift between these behaviors on their own according to the situation. The problem was to identify the right metric to switch. I know there are scenarios where behavior "2" is better than "0" but there's also many where it's worse. "0" is always kinda solid. Even when it's not optimal. That's why it's the default.

[bluth]

Thanks for the feedback!

You are welcome and thanks for your work ! AI is often neglected in games and the one you created feels alive and dynamic. I'm sure there are ways to exploit it but for a normal player like me it just feels great.

Earlier today I had a group of three EXALT charges me gun blazing simulteanously after shooting from cover and destroyed  my guys that tried to charge the building. It was awesome.

I will try the Agression 1 setting and removing omniscience and see the results.

I actually think the last guy camping in a room could be solved by enforcing more the surrender rules. Sometime the last guy surrends and it's great but often time it never happens. I also would love to not receive a grenade under my agent feets from the other side of the map but alas that has nothing to do with your great mod.

Thanks for your answer !

[bluth]

Sorry for the double post but I came across a weird comportment from the AI.

In two instances I was fighting about zombies and they actively ran away from me.

In one battle one Fat Zombie just ran away for ever until i caught up with him and in another every zombies I came across ran away and then turned back to attack my guys.

Is this supposed to be normal ? It did not feel very zombie-like.

I tried with Agression 0 and 1 and I did not see any difference.

edit : I just had a Zombie Infestation. Every zombie immediately ran away toward the edge of the map despite my guys shooting at them. They even ignored civilians standing around. The worst offenders are the Zombies in white shirt. They never turn back to fight and keep running toward the edge until killed.

You can see on the screenshot below, the zombies hid here for the whole battle, and if they sensed an agent nearny the would attack him and go back into their little hiding place. When attacked from above they just stood there getting shot at.

It actually kind of worked for them but it really did not feel like fighting zombies. I fought a spider swarn just earlier that behaved much more like zombies actually.

[Xilmi]

Let me describe how exactly the AI works and explain why this causes some units to behave in a non-immerserive manner.

Firstly: The AI doesn't know that a player has different expectations about a Zombie than any other unit, so the zombie runs through the same logic as other units do. But it's essentially the combination of low movmement-speed and only being able to attack in melee-range that makes it look unfitting.

Units first check whether they know the position of an enemy. If they do, they check whether they can attack the enemy. If they can, they will do so.
If they can't, they will look for the safest cover. If several positions are considered perfectly safe, they will favor the one that is closer to the enemy. Only if no good cover can be found at all, they will move towards the enemy.

Now if they don't know the exact location of an enemy, they will look for enemies. If they can they first check where they think enemies could still be from previous round. If not, they will just check places they haven't seen this turn. I'm currently experimenting with being more careful during this checking as it seems a big weakness when they are having worse vision than the player.

If they can't find an enemy they will go back to the cover-finding-part.

The zombies, even if they know where your units are, will rarely be able to attack on the same turn. Thus they will prefer to hide in hard to reach corners and hope you come close enough to them so they can strike.

Aggression 1-2 changes the behavior of cover-seeking. Instead of prefering the best cover, they prefer the closest position that is still covered. Knowing full well that it's very likely to be spotted and shot on the enemies' turn.

Aggression 3 and above skips all of the other steps between attacking and walking towards the supposed position of the enemy. If they can attack, they will. If not, they will close in. Quite Suicidal but if the numbers are high enough it can work to overwhelm the enemy.

[bluth]

Let me describe how exactly the AI works and explain why this causes some units to behave in a non-immerserive manner.

Interesting, thanks for your explanation.

Would it be possible then to adapt those Agression settings according to each unit type ? It would be great for immersion purposes to have differents ennemy having wildly different comportments.
Zombies : Agression 3, just running at you blindly
Counter-Terror Force : Agression 0, making being overly cautious with cover

I guess thats more something for the modder to do (setting each unit individual tags) but, as far as you know, is it possible to have different unit have differents AI, sometimes even in the same battle ?

[Xilmi]

Yes. That's exactly what "Aggression-Mode for Brutal-AI" setting "1" is there for. It uses the units aggression as per the *.rul file to determine which behavior to apply.

[Alpha Centauri Bear]

Regarding killing the last alien. I think someone introduced surrender option making AI surrender when they are overwhelmed. I think this should solve the long ending problem without tweaking AI algorithms.

[bluth]

Yes. That's exactly what "Aggression-Mode for Brutal-AI" setting "1" is there for. It uses the units aggression as per the *.rul file to determine which behavior to apply.

Oh thanks ! I think that might be the problem. When I look into the .rul files for certain Zombies units, some have LeeroyJenkins and some don't, some have agression 9 and some 2...

I will check if changing these value and sticking with Agression setting 1 work, for now i'm setting Agression 2 when facing zombies.

By the way, on mod.io we can read this about the mod :

"Aggressiveness-mode" => This replaces the old "Inherit aggression"-toggle and has a total of three options for now:
0> Baseline Aggressivness.
1> Multiplied with unit-aggression.
2> Multiplied with unit-aggression and take Leeroy-flag into account.

I read this as "1 and 2 are the same for units without the Leeroy Flag, only Leeroy-Flagged units will act crazy" but in your answer few posts earlier you say ;

Aggression 3 and above skips all of the other steps between attacking and walking towards the supposed position of the enemy. If they can attack, they will. If not, they will close in.

Wich seem to imply that Agression 3 (or 2 there is only 0, 1, 2) affect every single unit regardless of flag.

Which is true then ?

Regarding killing the last alien. I think someone introduced surrender option making AI surrender when they are overwhelmed. I think this should solve the long ending problem without tweaking AI algorithms.

I think I have this option checked, and It works sometimes but not always. Must depends on ennemy moral.

[Juku121]

I think that might be the problem. When I look into the .rul files for certain Zombies units, some have LeeroyJenkins and some don't, some have agression 9 and some 2...

Unless you're playing a modified XCF, that's not a problem. The zombies with aggression: 2 are Chryssalid spawns and not present on normal missions. All the other 'regular' zombies are leeroys, the only exception are the intact Zombie Troopers - who have weapons. Ghouls and other 'evolved' forms are not leeroys, but they're also armed or otherwise dangerous without charging.

I think I have this option checked, and It works sometimes but not always. Must depends on ennemy moral.

It's not an option you can check, it's a whole algorithm finetuned in the rulesets. XCF comes with it out of the box, but some parameters might need tweaking if the current implementation is not to your liking. The biggest roadblock to not getting surrenders is the presence of non-surrendering units: robots, higher ranks, etc.

There is also bug-hunt mode, which is also in XCF by default. Usually the mission is long over before it kicks in, though.

[Xilmi]

@bluth:
The information on the mod-description is unfortunately outdated. I should update it, for sure.
Refer to what the option is described as in-game. This should be the expected behavior.

[bluth]

Unless you're playing a modified XCF, that's not a problem. The zombies with aggression: 2 are Chryssalid spawns and not present on normal missions. All the other 'regular' zombies are leeroys, the only exception are the intact Zombie Troopers - who have weapons. Ghouls and other 'evolved' forms are not leeroys, but they're also armed or otherwise dangerous without charging.
It's not an option you can check, it's a whole algorithm finetuned in the rulesets. XCF comes with it out of the box, but some parameters might need tweaking if the current implementation is not to your liking. The biggest roadblock to not getting surrenders is the presence of non-surrendering units: robots, higher ranks, etc.

There is also bug-hunt mode, which is also in XCF by default. Usually the mission is long over before it kicks in, though.

Ok thanks, I will just continue to switch Agression 2 on Zombies mission and it's perfectly fine.

Yeah Bug Hunt kicks in when the only guy left standing is slow and melee equiped. He realise he has no chance and stay in hiding. Quite smartly actually.

By the way, I also realized why there was some confusion about Agression level. I was using an outdated version of Brutal AI... Now it makes much more sens why you were speaking about Agression 3 and such. Sorry I'm dumb. Maybe those weird things I was seeing will disapear now !

Anyway, I changed some settings, tweak some files and I am now having an absolute blast playing XCF with Brutal AI. Thanks everyone !

[0xEBJC]

I also would love to not receive a grenade under my agent feets from the other side of the map but alas that has nothing to do with your great mod.

Yea, I was also thinking about this and wish that the grenade throwing distance was Nerfed.  THey should not be allowed to throw complete across the map.  Something more realistic is needed.

Example solution: Max Grenade Throw Distance (MGTD) = ( (2 * Strength / 10) + (Throwing / 15) ) ; round down to nearest integer for each calculation.

Soldier has: Str = 60, Thr = 75, then MGTD = 12 + 5 = 17 Tiles

Solider has: Str =45, Thr = 50, then MGTD = 9 + 3 = 12 Tiles

etc...

Accurace logic remains the same, this would only affect max throw distance for each soldier, this would also affect ALL NPCs, enemies and firendly NPCs.

[SIMON BAILIE]

Is there a problem with v8.32 as it won't start-see attached.