Author Topic: Brutal-OXCE 9.1.4  (Read 58446 times)

Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #105 on: December 27, 2023, 06:13:21 pm »
Sure, but then someone also has to tweak the mod(s) to include data for both AIs. Reusing existing intelligence variables is a compromise and, like many compromises, it does its job but not well.
I intending to do replacement unit_RUL file for XCF, there's not much of units. Around 200 or so. And pretty all units are familiar enough to work around. But  I have no idea how to make it as optionable mod via settings, not as permanent replacement.
Let's see what Xilmi answers on passive aggression.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2023, 06:16:32 pm by Abyss »

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #106 on: December 27, 2023, 06:50:20 pm »
Certainly, but then you're going to be stuck maintaining that compatibility patch. And it won't be nearly enough for 'full' compatibility. Plus, how long are you willing to commit to this?

Never mind that you'll be second-guessing the mod author in quite a few places.

Anway, that's all doable and not even hard, so fire away.


What exactly are you asking for as far as an 'optionable' mod goes? You can already make a mod either recommend or enforce individual game settings, and one can certainly set any global variables that need resetting for BAI compatibility.

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #107 on: December 27, 2023, 09:56:15 pm »
I understand you point, Abyss. This is exactly what I am talking about.
I don't understand the notion of mod "compatibility". Why they even should be? They are different games even if built from same pieces.
Sometimes people build one mod on top of the existing one. That does not make them compatible.

And BAI is different engine even. What is the use of making some text files compatible between two different code bases????

I get it that people have some common understanding what unit "intelligence" is. I guess, mod authors try to match this understanding with what they program internally. After all higher intelligence number leads to deadlier unit in this mod. However, if they diverge than they diverge. There is no point to adjust them to the smallest variations.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2023, 09:58:38 pm by Alpha Centauri Bear »

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #108 on: December 27, 2023, 10:03:01 pm »
To reiterate, I didn't mean to make you life harder. Just pointing out that in majority of cases tuning rulesets to new engine is an inevitable work.

Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #109 on: December 27, 2023, 11:58:51 pm »
What exactly are you asking for as far as an 'optionable' mod goes? You can already make a mod either recommend or enforce individual game settings, and one can certainly set any global variables that need resetting for BAI compatibility.


Simply, how it is all done so one ruleset is forcefully getting replaced with another one, while original Sol's unit.rul file stays intact. Probably, call it "Brutal-AI optimization of units for XCF".

The alternative can be just replacement of original unit.rul file with another, which contains adjusted intel and aggro settings.

Online Yankes

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 3350
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2023, 12:58:01 am »
Did not OXC have tools to altering existing mods rulesets? Even more OXCE adds more tools that allow better interacting with base mod by using `update:` or `override:` that check if given item or unit rule exists before applying it.

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2023, 01:23:06 am »
I don't understand the notion of mod "compatibility". Why they even should be?
Because they change different aspects of the game, and some people want to play a megamod with harder AI? One that's not likely to migrate over to BAI in its entirety, that is. Hoping some random fan will make a compatibility patch vs providing some built-in compatibility is the question here.

After all higher intelligence number leads to deadlier unit in this mod. However, if they diverge than they diverge.
The point of this tangent was that in vanilla/mod rulesets, higher intelligence isn't necessarily 100% correlated to more 'intelligent' or even more dangerous units.



Simply, how it is all done so one ruleset is forcefully getting replaced with another one, while original Sol's unit.rul file stays intact. Probably, call it "Brutal-AI optimization of units for XCF".

The alternative can be just replacement of original unit.rul file with another, which contains adjusted intel and aggro settings.
As long as you don't go into people's houses enforcing the ruleset replacement (or at least hacking their machines :P), nothing 'forceful' can happen to files and computers not under your control.

OTOH, you already can make small adjustments to most rulesets without overriding the parent mod (as long as people download and enable your submod, that is). See the XCF submod list for many an example. The latest entry, the surrender submod, works exactly as you're describing this, just for different variables.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 01:25:05 am by Juku121 »

Offline Alpha Centauri Bear

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 466
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2023, 02:15:56 am »
Keep in mind I am not proposing or restricting anything. Just curious why a single aspect of ruleset and engine collided?

Because they change different aspects of the game, and some people want to play a megamod with harder AI? One that's not likely to migrate over to BAI in its entirety, that is. Hoping some random fan will make a compatibility patch vs providing some built-in compatibility is the question here.

That is right. It seems the "compatibility" is understood differently by different people here. If you mean just an ease of migration then I would agree with you.

The point of this tangent was that in vanilla/mod rulesets, higher intelligence isn't necessarily 100% correlated to more 'intelligent' or even more dangerous units.

No arguments here. I never even paid attention to unit intelligence in vanilla/OXCE. That is why I am very curious how people use it in other mods that they want to transfer this functionality to BAI ???


Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 7.13.1
« Reply #113 on: December 28, 2023, 08:23:40 am »
No arguments here. I never even paid attention to unit intelligence in vanilla/OXCE. That is why I am very curious how people use it in other mods that they want to transfer this functionality to BAI ???
Vanilla AI and BAI work in different way, and Xilmi was the first person to propose migration of native (i.e. modder-set) intel and aggro settings into BAI. What is being discussed here is that, although, approach is overall good, the VAI and BAI intel and aggro doesn't exactly correlate in a way one may suppose on the initial look. Thus, while most units work perfectly fine, others work not as intended.
Intellect = memory function in VAI, while in BAI it is aspect of action fineness.
Aggro = frontal assault vs ambush-preservation of TU's. It is somewhat close to BAI's intention, but now shifted by some amount of whole numbers (in VAI terms) for amount of units, that are supposed to be more cowards rather than brave warriors.

While lacking serious AI tools, modders of vanilla OXCE balance fights by following means:
- enemy amounts, stats&armors and weapons
- restricting X-COM in same categories
- map design and initial unit layout

The proposed solution for BAI to be top-experience is:
- making formulas clear and final
- and then fine-tune aggro and intel settings in RUL files to estimated values either by modders themselves or by community.

By mine understanding, it should be a multiplicator, rather than surplus.
For instance of balanced aggro of BAI = 1, aggro 3-4 for pusher will be enough to represent super-aggressive unit, and 0-1 - 0.2 will be enough to represent super-coward unit. No need for aggressiveness 7-10.
Again, this all being supposed for psychological validity of unit behavior, i.e. player's game experience, and may a bit nerf the overall power of BAI. Which is compensated by unit amount via difficulty level.   

Xilmi says that BAI ain't going to be perfect for any mission out there, unless megamod is created specially with BAI in mind. But we can go close enough by hand-tuning.   
   
« Last Edit: December 28, 2023, 08:59:08 am by Abyss »

Offline kelltozet

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
xpiratez + brutal OXCE items spawning bug
« Reply #114 on: December 28, 2023, 08:50:46 pm »
Xpiratez + brutal OXCE has a problem with spawning items. In Xpiratez mode, there are special outfits that spawn loot only for the fact of appearing on a mission.

The winter queen's outfit should give 1 glamour and 1 silver chip. If you upload the save file to brutal OXCE, launch the mission, and then immediately fly away on the first turn, there will be no loot.

The same problem with enemy units.
https://xpedia.netlify.app/##STR_NINJA_ASSAULT
https://xpedia.netlify.app/##STR_NINJA_GAL
All units of the ninja faction have built-in ninja badges. Badges will also not appear after killing ninjas.

Offline Abyss

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 355
    • View Profile
Re: xpiratez + brutal OXCE items spawning bug
« Reply #115 on: December 28, 2023, 09:09:45 pm »
The winter queen's outfit should give 1 glamour and 1 silver chip. If you upload the save file to brutal OXCE, launch the mission, and then immediately fly away on the first turn, there will be no loot.
All units of the ninja faction have built-in ninja badges. Badges will also not appear after killing ninjas.
There definitly were ninja badges in my last playthrough. That was 7.9.13

Offline Xilmi

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 642
    • View Profile
Re: xpiratez + brutal OXCE items spawning bug
« Reply #116 on: December 28, 2023, 11:01:41 pm »
If you upload the save file to brutal OXCE, launch the mission, and then immediately fly away on the first turn, there will be no loot.
The save you attached is during a base-defense. If I abandon it, I lose the base and everyone who was in it. Are you sure it's the correct save you wanted to attach?

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 8.0.0
« Reply #117 on: December 29, 2023, 09:44:24 am »
A thought that struck me: how does Brutal AI handle the situation when an enemy is given at least two weapons, and the better one suffers from the two-handed penalty? Or they both do? Or they get something like four handguns with different stats/ammo? How do they choose? Do they choose? And, most importantly, how do they avoid the two-handed penalty manage to use two-handed-only weapons in this situation, if at all? Something like a rocket launcher, an axe and a pistol all at the same time.

Offline kelltozet

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 12
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 8.0.0
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2023, 04:12:10 pm »
The save you attached is during a base-defense.

I'm sorry. My mistake.

Here is the correct save file (A3.sav). It should be on the geoscape right before arriving at the crash site.

Offline donk

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: Brutal-OXCE 8.0.0
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2023, 01:53:46 am »
There's a bug in 8.0.1 that makes it very very likely to crash when you end a mission. It happens both when you finish it or choose save and abandon game. The save does not corrupt though.

It also randomly crashes during enemy turns so I had to revert to 7.13.1. It was crashing constantly so it is not really playable.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2023, 05:32:11 pm by donk »