Author Topic: Weak UFOs  (Read 2543 times)

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2023, 10:50:05 pm »
I think that one of my ideas how to address this. If the convoys move, you could go vaporize them if you wish to obliterate them, or research and obtain a very weak craft and/or weapons for the specific purpose of "shooting" them down. The main benefit of the former would be getting rid of the mission if you don't want to bother with it (and some bonus points)[...]

This just begs the question why X-Com can blow up a whole convoy with a single missile, but not eliminate safe-houses, bases or manors the same way.

Please keep the airgame where it belongs - in the air.

Everything else just aims to further illustrate the inherent shortcomings of existing game mechanics.

Spoiler"Juku being Juku":

Disagree. A more involved air game with mission-spawning convoys is both more 'realistic' and more interesting.

Disagree. The "more involved air game" also gave me 6-8 hover cars spawning from hybrid bases which fruitlessly try to attack interceptors, waste my time and have given me an ingrained hatred for the interception music. I'd welcome a "less involved air game" with focus on more (and more coherent) lore to be honest. There is only so much you can do to pad the utilitarian mechanics of the base game. Given how limited the options are (despite of what OXCE adds) I'd rather not it overstay its welcome more than it already has.


My headcanon is that all reports that reach the Commander's Chief Agent's desk have already been confirmed. Either the FBI already inspected the convoy, and they are now making a run for it, leaving two dead feds behind. Or it's a limited-time opportunity, and the hybrids will disperse if someone spooks them too soon. You need to hit them hard and fast, which is the entire MO of X-Com. YMMV.

The former only further illustrates why law enforcement agencies are the guys to handle this, given that they have the expertise with exactely this kind of situation, and the latter is not all reflected in-game where you can intercept and break-off from UFOs with basically no consequence. You can literally spook the hybrids to your hearts content. Not buying it Juku.


Hard to do with a moving convoy and not guaranteed to stop it in its tracks right then and there. Spikes are small and difficult to target from a moving vehicle with enough accuracy, and cars can go some distance even with broken tires.

No need to drop them from a moving vehicle, just set them up a sufficient distance ahead. Whether you are using caltrops or spike strips, you really don't want to "stop them right then and there", i.e. crash - you want them to run out. And sure, the hybrids could have run-flat tires, use tanks or anti-grav tech to enable any scenario of your chosing tbh. But that is quite beside the point. We have a clandestine convoy with normal vans, not some supered up vehicles that X-Com needs minguns or missiles to stop. A simple police roadblock should be sufficient for what is portrayed in-game, period.

It does seem to me that the simplest solution from the modder side would be to ask OXCE devs for an 'always lands when intercepted, even by faster unarmed transports' UFO flag. Maybe also a "give a 'destroy/force landing' prompt if the interceptor is armed and faster" flag. Don't know if there are technical/design problems with that.

Yeah, that is what I was proposing earlier.

But is this really needed, given that we are talking about an ordinary ground-bound convoy moving at most at highway speeds?

At the scales we are talking about here, does this really make a difference? The medium convoy has speedMax of 75. They really aren't going anywhere. Just leave them as stationary mission sites and avoid dealing with the headache-inducing questions that introducing air-to-ground combat into the mod brings up.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2023, 10:52:33 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Juku121

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2023, 12:26:09 am »
This just begs the question why X-Com can blow up a whole convoy with a single missile, but not eliminate safe-houses, bases or manors the same way.

Please keep the airgame where it belongs - in the air.
Or bring the air game to the ground and allow aerial bombardment of bases. It's not as if 'bomb UFO and get cash' wasn't one of the more popular features of Xenonauts 1, or anything...

Spoiler" Nits are back!":
Disagree. The "more involved air game" also gave me 6-8 hover cars spawning from hybrid bases which fruitlessly try to attack interceptors, waste my time and have given me an ingrained hatred for the interception music.
That's mostly the aircars being too spammy and overstaying their proper time in the limelight, i.e. a balancing issue.

I'd welcome a "less involved air game" with focus on more (and more coherent) lore to be honest.
You want a narrative, I want an emergent strategy game. Can't please everyone, I guess. I'd say Piratez has shown that you can have an at least somewhat interesting air game even with the limitations of OXCE. Granted, all the big mods tend to overstay their welcome, but that's not really limited to any one aspect of the game. Any significant part of the mod has its problems.


I don't really believe the air game is going to get a razor-sharp makeover, since Solarius hasn't really shown too much interest in that. So I guess your stance is pretty reasonable, all things considered.


The former only further illustrates why law enforcement agencies are the guys to handle this, given that they have the expertise with exactely this kind of situation, and the latter is not all reflected in-game where you can intercept and break-off from UFOs with basically no consequence. You can literally spook the hybrids to your hearts content.
Well, the cases the FBI handles for us are the ones that come in the mail. The hybrids actively running around are ours to deal with. Or not. Whacking moles on a global scale is exactly our business. Investigating mole holes, not so much.

As to the spooking, as long as you keep spooking them, they can't go to ground, on account of there being helicopter gunships chasing them, or similar. Although this does break down when you can just go away and chill for an hour and then resume the routine.

Edit: My original headcanon was more like "FBI is looking at us, better do this another day" vs "the guys in the black helicopters are chasing us, run!". X-Com spooks them so hard subtlety is no longer an option. Hybrids might deceive the FBI, they are not going to fool an X-Com squad out for blood. /edit

I'll admit that hybrid convoys with no target aren't contributing much besides lighting up the globe with colourful markers. Convoys with a target, like those of the cultists, now that's another matter. 

No need to drop them from a moving vehicle, just set them up a sufficient distance ahead. Whether you are using caltrops or spike strips, you really don't want to "stop them right then and there", i.e. crash - you want them to run out. And sure, the hybrids could have run-flat tires, use tanks or anti-grav tech to enable any scenario of your chosing tbh. But that is quite beside the point. We have a clandestine convoy with normal vans, not some supered up vehicles that X-Com needs minguns or missiles to stop. A simple police roadblock should be sufficient for what is portrayed in-game, period.
The problem with roadblocks is that you need time and continuous intel to set these up. And resources X-Com is probably not carrying around with them on global manhybridhunts. Machine gunning the convoy is at least as effective and much simpler, unless you want it more or less intact.

I don't disagree that helicopter gunships and air strikes on road vans are overkill. But just essentially doing an air assault on a bunch of cars and basically beginning the tactical mission straight away seems much easier and less risky (in the sense of not setting up in the wrong place and losing the convoy) than the elaborate police procedure you're proposing. Sure, if you're the cops you might want it that way. But we're not the cops.

But is this really needed, given that we are talking about an ordinary ground-bound convoy moving at most at highway speeds?
No, not for these convoys, you've convinced me. It might be handy for stopping cultist infiltration or assassination cars, though. Or a enable a variety of similar missions that don't exist yet. Whether that's desirable, well, I guess we differ there.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2023, 11:16:21 am by Juku121 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2023, 07:01:21 pm »
I think the change is well intentioned, I just don't see why it should be necessary to intercept and strafe simple ground convoys, as per the aforementioned "issues". An ideal solution (in my oppinion) would be if there was an option that automatically forced a landing site if intercepted by transports. No shots, no damage, basically just an ambush/road block.

Really my only reason was that the target should be moving. But I guess a trap makes more sense than a chase.

EDIT: Brought back the previous setup, the convoy now spawns a site.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2023, 07:42:19 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline psavola

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2024, 06:47:36 pm »
Probably an oversight? You rolled back only the medium convoys change, the small convoys still move in 3.2.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2024, 07:05:43 pm »
Oops, it happens. Fixed.

Offline theophilos

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2024, 11:00:24 pm »
Ohhh I didn't know there was a way for those those things to survive.. I had mass driver cannon and they always were destroyed, that must be why I've had trouble finding hybrids!

Btw I like addition of chemtrails , my buddy was convinced that they are real... was very tempted to send him the ufopedia article on it 😂

Offline psavola

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2024, 11:06:14 pm »
Ohhh I didn't know there was a way for those those things to survive.. I had mass driver cannon and they always were destroyed, that must be why I've had trouble finding hybrids!

Actually, once you destroy(ed) the moving hybrids, you might get retaliation missions against your bases (and in other words get lots of hybrids, among them the tougher ones). Depending on the phase you're on and how your bases are staffed, these might be annoying. Stationary convoys prevents this retaliation vector.

Offline Abyss

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2024, 11:47:22 pm »
Well, hybrid convoys are actual through Year 2 threat arc, and should be finished before actual alien invasion (as proposed by optimal timing), but usually I get them done in a middle of year three, when they are more of a nuisance, rather than something actually worth, except giving agents a couple of new stat points in shooting...

You know what, accident idea that hybrid convoy should end up in hybrid missions, at least sometimes. Crossover!   

Offline Juku121

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2024, 07:59:39 am »
Well, hybrid convoys are actual through Year 2 threat arc, and should be finished before actual alien invasion...
Er, hybrid missions are never 'done', at least as of 3.2. You could be done with the convoys by ignoring them, I suppose.

Offline Abyss

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2024, 06:56:00 pm »
Er, hybrid missions are never 'done', at least as of 3.2. You could be done with the convoys by ignoring them, I suppose.

They do not end when you release Hybrids from their masters' circuitry? Story getting sad.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2024, 07:12:36 pm »
Yep, no end to the Hybrid arc (yet?).

A I understand it, the circuitry frees a significant portion if not all of the Hybrids from direct mind control, but they are still indoctrinated to follow their alien masters. Some cross over to X-Com, I imagine even more remain as fugitives from both sides (and there are probably other shadow factions after them as well), and I guess some never overcome their conditioning, and there might also be an influx of newly created hybrids as well.

Or maybe it's all just fanfiction... :-X

Offline Abyss

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Re: Weak UFOs
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2024, 08:17:34 pm »
Or maybe it's all just fanfiction... :-X
Well written. Why not?
I just think that tougher of hybrids should then be part of mixed crews, then. Like, when invasion begins, couple of sectoids + 15 hybrid assaults can do the mess.