Author Topic: Month 0 mission scripts  (Read 5387 times)

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2023, 03:51:29 pm »
I doubt this is feasible (or I wouldn't implement it at least if I had to maintain this kind of mod).
Sure, but mission script maintenance is already a pain due to all the duplicate scripts and the sheer amount of missions. I think I saw some non-aligning numbers when I was looking at 'month 0' mission chances, and recall similar instances having been reported and fixed in the past. One more pinprick or two isn't too bad.

Whether these changes are worth it is another question, but I am admittedly in the "mods are for hardcore veterans, stick with vanilla if you're a casual who can't take it" camp. :P
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 06:36:03 pm by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2023, 08:39:18 pm »
More missions on the map - more choice of which ones to do and thus more control. It's not ideal, but it is what it is.

If anything this equals less control because you are forcing players to drop missions. There is no real "choice" here because you have no control over when and what missions spawn, nor does the player have knowledge regarding future mission spawns.
If a player is prevented from attending a newly spawned mission because of a prior mission spawn there isn't a valid choice being made. What you are referring to here is an illusion of choice that does not actually benefit the player because you can't retroactively pick out missions you want to attend or not.

My impression is that you can explain this by not increased cultist activity, but increased X-Com detection due to getting handed all the leads from precursor orgs/Council factions/whoever.

It's not like I haven't gone over this regarding lore/head canon friendly explanations. The thing is that the missions don't actually reflect this because they behave like regular newly spawned missions, not ongoing stuff you are catching on to. It simply isn't consistent with with subsequent months.

This is by no means game breaking or anything, but it does stand out for me (and apparently others as well).

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2023, 09:51:15 pm »
If anything this equals less control because you are forcing players to drop missions.
No? If the player can choose which mission to take and which to drop, it's control over what they do by default. Unlike doing all the missions, where the only control is over the order in which the missions get done. If that, since many of them aren't active simultaneously.

You're arguing about the degree of control, at most, and coming from what I see as a highly idiosyncratic view of what control means. Game design is all about constraining what the players can do, in a manner the designer thinks is interesting and/or fun. And all too often these days, even a moderate degree of freedom leads to players being paralysed with indecision. :(

Players also do not necessarily have to drop anything, depending on how well they manage the strategy part, as evidenced by many if not most people never noticing this issue in the first place after years of development and 'month 0' mission bloat.

There is no real "choice" here because you have no control over when and what missions spawn...
Mission-gating research exists, so you're wrong even about that.

And not having total control over which mission types you do in a given month is hardly total lack of control.

If a player is prevented from attending a newly spawned mission because of a prior mission spawn there isn't a valid choice being made.
Only the first time. Next time, or next game, either the player has prepared for this by upping their transport game, or has chosen to remain in the previous situation.

And you're almost never in such a position. The only time this line of thinking applies is when all your transports are on return trips back to base. In almost any other situation, barring range/speed issues, you're free to choose to do the new mission instead.

Never mind all the games that pride themselves on 'choices and consequences' by giving you basically conditionally branching mission trees.

What you are referring to here is an illusion of choice that does not actually benefit the player because you can't retroactively pick out missions you want to attend or not.
If you're so concerned about picking the exact lineup of missions, enable savescumming, save at the start of the month, check out all the missions and reload. Because beyond that, I don't think many games even allow such a degree of freedom. The original certainly didn't. It's always been about limited information and living with the consequences of your choices made within the fog of war.

You were never given control over where and when UFOs spawn on the Geoscape. Even nuCom's 'choose one of three terror sites' thing, which is much closer to what you're criticising here, had choice and control. It was artificial choice, but by no means an illusion of one.

Illusion of choice means the outcome doesn't depend on the choice, not that the choice is constrained in some way.

The thing is that the missions don't actually reflect this because they behave like regular newly spawned missions, not ongoing stuff you are catching on to. It simply isn't consistent with with subsequent months.
Yes, and your first day on the job isn't consistent with the rest of your career. Quelle surprise.

Solarius already said that he views all missions (or at least all missions of the general sort) as 'ongoing stuff you are catching on to'. We don't have total penetration of cults/backwater villages, we don't become aware of things as they happen. There are conceivably hundreds of these things on the globe every month, and the ones we see are the ones we've found out about. We get a boost to the 'finding out' part in the beginning, that's it.

This is by no means game breaking or anything, but it does stand out for me (and apparently others as well).
Sure, it's only been what, several years, until one person actually pointed this out? You admitted yourself that your own problem with mission overload wasn't really 'month 0', but rather ghost missions and general mission overload. Which are valid criticisms, the latter having been made plenty of times before, and my impression is that Solarius has made a conscious design choice about this being so. So it's either live with it, or make a submod. Maybe publish it if you want to convince others that this is the better way.


For the record, I haven't played the ghost stuff, but I've watched some others and I also don't really like this arc, nor its prominence with high-probability mission spawns compared to regular 8*3% stuff.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 10:12:11 pm by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2023, 10:34:50 pm »
Juku, you are doing the thing again. Why are you needlessly escalating this?

I am not going to deign that wall of text that you are posting with a detailed answer. In fact I am not even going to bother reading it because juding by our previous interactions that started out like this it would be a waste of my time.

If Solarius or anybody else wants to discuss this I will be happy to do this in a civilized manner, but what you are doing here is not a productive approach. Either keep your replies concise or don't bother. I certainly won't if you keep doing this.




Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2023, 10:57:24 pm »
Judging by previous experiences, even if I tried, you'd just repeat the same position back no matter what I or enyone else said. So I'll pass. If you want to do something constructive, make a submod to demonstrate your case, as I proposed.

Everyone else can read my arguments and make up their own minds. Or not, if they do not wish to.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 11:03:01 pm by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2023, 11:56:34 pm »
You don't try Juku, that's the point. And I am simply sick and tired of people who have to rely on discussion styles aimed at burrowing arguments under walls of text. If you can keep your replies concise and not >300% of what you are trying to adress I might actually bother to read and consider them. But at this point what you are doing is for a lack of better words rude and excessive.

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 11730
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2023, 12:15:08 pm »
I doubt this is feasible (or I wouldn't implement it at least if I had to maintain this kind of mod). Such a change would require duplicating or at least referencing all the mission scripts that currently start at month 0; I don't think you can have a ruleset "firstMonth is 1 for difficulty level 0-1, otherwise it's 0". There would be a few ways to do this but AFAICS all of them are painful for maintenance point of view and prone to cause bugs (if one was to forget updating all of them if further changes are made or if a new mission is created).

Yes, that would be doable, but very ugly and bloated. I'd rather not deal with that, I try to keep the files as readable (to me) as possible...
If I were to take action, I'd rather switch some scripts from month 0 to month 1.

Offline Spacewolf

  • Squaddie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2023, 03:51:39 pm »
A ridiculously stupid question, but:

Month 0 is December 1996 in "base" XCom Files, correct?

Why are there any missions in a month where you have only 48 game hours to do anything, most of which will probably necessarily be spent with "game start housekeeping" (my term, yes, but I have no doubt every player has stuff they do every playthrough before attempting missions)? Why not just hold off on missions til 1 January 1997?

I don't know, just me.

Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2023, 04:33:00 pm »
Why are there any missions in a month where you have only 48 game hours...
Technical reasons (it's easier to assign missions to any starting month regardless of exact starting date) plus Solarius found that he actually likes the effect.

Why not just hold off on missions til 1 January 1997?
New sheriff in town, XCF new player hazing ritual ;D, showcases more missions. None of it is compelling, but neither is the opposite position, at least so far.

Offline sudtrap

  • Sergeant
  • **
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2023, 09:18:18 pm »
I personally like getting a mission on month zero. It feels good to win it; like you're getting ahead of the game.

Maybe I'm just stirring the pot, but I don't feel like Juku really escalated things. Not really. Maybe I'm just biased because I agree with his points, but... I agree with him in that
Solarius made a decision; why not make a submod if there is disagreement?

There are a million different ways Solarius could have made Xcom files; and many of those ways would also be fun. Disagreement is only going to be natural.

Honestly, if someone did tweak things in a different direction, it could be enjoyable.


Offline Juku121

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 1799
  • We're all mad here.
    • View Profile
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2023, 09:26:36 pm »
Well, the problem isn't so much missions during 'month 0', it's rather that the missions for 'month 0' get generated at the end of the month and lumped together with 'month 1', and thus make January an exciting and dangerous time to be in charge of nascent X-Com.

Spoiler "Pot stirring the kettle":

As to communication issues, I am the living embodiment of this trope :-[:


I am a large part of the problem. But I can be reasoned with and convinced to change my mind/lay off/change direction if the other side is willing to. Make of it what you will.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2023, 09:31:04 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

  • Global Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 11730
  • WE MUST DISSENT
    • View Profile
    • Nocturmal Productions modding studio website
Re: Month 0 mission scripts
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2023, 10:55:23 pm »
While I haven't changed my mind, I've decided to disable most scripts during month 0. Let's call it an experiment. :)