Author Topic: Need some help figuring out the progression  (Read 7144 times)

Offline nickboom

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Need some help figuring out the progression
« on: March 03, 2023, 08:26:49 am »
Hello, been attempting the mod lately and with a combination of a few restarts and some avid save scumming, I've found myself in promotion 2. I'm around early 1998, March or April I believe and I'm kinda directionless. I have the Black Lotus HQ mission unlocked and most of the other cults are nearly there as well (just need those Base missions to pop). I have two functional bases, one main, one forward with some research capacity, a third is being build up for coverage purposes. Got around 40 total scientists and 21 engineers (wanna get more but I'm only netting about 1 mil per month so I'm holding back) I'm using mostly black ops guns, predominantly the auto snipers. I heard light mini guns are really good so I have a few on backup for close ranged missions and a few other black op guns for rookies who can't hit the side of a barn.

What I'm worried about is that I'm starting to get tritianum items but don't have the means to really produce all too much. I prioritized the vests for obvious reasons but expected the ammo to be free...it was not. Clips feel like they're eaten magically by the game at random and so I'm kinda afraid to produce them despite the large jump in damage since after the vests I can only make a couple. I don't have radar systems up yet nor interceptors of any sort but I do have the dragonfly to transport troops. Also, got lucky and have a small stock of flame gloves and the capability of using them, a few 80+ psi soldiers too, are they worth it? Most of my guns are two handed so keeping it in a quick draw is my best bet but it's a little hard to get in close with my style of play. Only other question I have is if AI units are worth it. I did a little playing ahead to get the outrider and it seemed good but also went down in like a turn of two of consistent fire during the day. Is it better at night?

Finally, should I tackle the Black Lotus HQ mission or continue focusing mostly on research? I heard its not the worst but I also don't enjoy ninja stars going up my ass from three tiles away cause my guys can't squint hard enough to see the dude.

Apologies for the some what sloppy style of writing. I had a lot of questions and didn't really know how to phrase them. The devs seem really active on here so cheers to you! This is one of the best mods for really any game I've ever played. It feels extremely complete my only real complain is that some more direction in the research would be helpful because its hard to figure out what's good or not without just trying random stuff sometimes! But other than that, I love the lore and complex engagements!

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2023, 12:12:15 pm »
If you want to "spoil" yourself you can open up the tech tree viewer by pressing "q" in geoscape view. While you certainly play the game without it, it is kind of useful see what you are missing and/or where you want to be going or focussing your research on.

On my last playthrough I got to promotion III around July or August 1999 i think? Depends a bit on the RNG given the prerequesites.

If you are able to adress the Black Lotus HQ you might as well do so, since one of the prerequesites for Promotion III is containing at least one cult, and you cut down on the manor spawns. While alloy ammo is of course nice for the damage boost it provides it is not really necessary for the cults/early game enemies in my oppinion, if you have the option I would go for the armor. But I don't really know what the meta is here (or if there even is a meta you should be concerned about).

Offline Juku121

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2023, 12:28:16 pm »
In general, your aims should include
  • Interceptors and air-to-air weapons. And you need stuff better than MiGs and Stingrays soon enough.
  • Fast and/or spacious transports to handle large amounts of enemies and to get to landed UFOs and critical missions across the globe.
  • Killing off the cults if you don't want to deal with their manor bullshit. Although leaving them alive nets you some interesting missions and loot.
  • Better research labs.
  • Weapons of Mass Destruction. HE packs, mortars and shrapnel rockets are some fan favourites.
  • Better weapons and armour in general. At least looted lasers, alloy vests and suits, miniguns to strip armour, gas grenades to kill Lobstermen, incendiaries to panic enemies, etc.

Miniguns are really good at their intended range and/or against enemies with way too much armour. Not so good at long ranges or very close quarters where the TU costs are a bit steep. You can even kill several enemies with one volley.

Heavy Tactical Suits, Tritanium Suits and later on M.A.G.M.A. Power Armour are things that will change the tactical game against many non-aliens.

Alloy scarcity is a real concern, and some of the ammo costs are a bit silly. E.g. Spypistol alloy rounds take (relatively) so much it's pretty much a luxury. Loot Hybrid bases, MiB ships and all UFOs you can get your grubby mitts on. :) Due to how the game's damage model works, alloy ammo is a nice boost against moderately armoured enemies, but not a giant improvement against naked critters. Also, note that alloy armour generally has better resistances against alien or other advanced weapons, while conventional armour is better against regular firearms. The increased raw armour values help, but not vastly so. A Heavy Tactical Suit or something with a shield is still a better choice against cultists than plain alloy vests.

I think the mod enforces statistical bullet saving? That's far better than clips being 'eaten' after you fire even a single shot.

Get Ospreys ASAP. Promo III gets you the Kitsune and the Sky... tranports, but that's a bit further off.

I've never used flame gloves myself, but from what I've seen, they're nice for short-range anti-armour work. Kinda suck in open maps, though. I use tasers or mod-modded dart pistols as QD weapons myself.

AIs have a lot of perks, particularly their anti-camo (and specifically anti-ninja) vision. Actual tank chassises are also pretty much indestructible against most human enemies. Outrider looks kinda useless, but I haven't really given it a proper try. And even then, having something take a turn's worth of fire is nothing to scoff at. Especially since AIs can be resurrected unless they get totally destroyed by plasma fire or something similarly powerful.

Black Lotus HQ is relatively okay as far as ninjas go, since they don't have a lot of space to hide. You can use motion scanners or dogs to spot them, or coat all empty corridors in fire and spot them that way.

Note that taking on the HQ and killing off the cult are not the same thing. You can get Promo III and still leave all four of the cults alive.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 12:37:40 pm by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2023, 12:42:21 pm »
Note that taking on the HQ and killing off the cult are not the same thing. You can get Promo III and still leave all four of the cults alive.

Which I still think is a bit misleading given the wording of the prerequesite. Really, the player should demonstrate that they are actually able to shut the cults down. "Sure, we could if we wanted to" isn't really a basis on which to award more privileges, given that x-com takes the blame for basically everything else that's happening around the globe regardless of them being able to adress it or not.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2023, 02:05:48 pm »
I don't disagree, though the logic of XCF politics is sometimes quite opaque. When I did my tentative overhaul in the 0.4 period, I mandated killing all four cults for Promo III, and at least one to get promo II. Though my versions of PII and PIII were slightly different.

Offline Chuckebaby

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2023, 02:30:38 pm »
Taking care of the Black lotus will be difficult but it's doable. HQ will not end their game. You'll need to open up another mission which will allow you to capture
Spoiler:
an artifact
something to make certain the deed is done. That mission (not the HQ) is pretty difficult.

I feel Lotus was the toughest of all to wipe out.
Just do the HQ and wait for orders.

A little note about HQ. You can try hiding in the upper levels of the drop zone (elevator) but Lotus is on to you, they send guys up to the top to greet you if you stay there.
Another note of importance, The lower elevator doors do not seem to close after the turn, they remain open and only close at the start of "your turn". So you'll need to hide behind the one tile space in each of the 4 corners.
You'll know what I'm talking about.

Typically in XCF all doors close after turn is done, lower elevator doors do not. It makes it more challenging.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 02:32:56 pm by Chuckebaby »

Offline Juku121

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2023, 03:09:42 pm »
Is this a recent change? The capturable thing used to be located in the HQ, no extra mission needed. Some research was necessary afterwards, yes.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2023, 04:03:01 pm »
Taking care of the Black lotus will be difficult but it's doable. HQ will not end their game. You'll need to open up another mission which will allow you to capture
Spoiler:
an artifact
something to make certain the deed is done. That mission (not the HQ) is pretty difficult.

Yeah, this is news to me. The HQ missions yield the item needed to shut down the cult (not just for Black Lotus, but any cult HQ mission). Are you talking about
Spoiler:
the shrine mission or the academy
? Those are not really part of the cult eradication arcs from what I can tell.

Offline nickboom

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2023, 05:25:43 pm »
Whoa, thank you for the responses everyone! Ok, I understand now! I’m making my way to get proper air fighters up and will plot out tackling to the Black Lotus HQ when I can. Also, based on what I saw from the layout (savescumming yay!) it’s all close quarters so the flame gloves will actually be useful.

I do spam weapons of mass destruction, I like dynamite. I think I researched high explosives but can’t buy them till promo III. I always have a cannon bro with HE rounds loaded up cause their ability to do splash damage and just generally clean someone up for a kill is really good. I guess really the last question I have is regarding Black Lotus Avatars, any pointers for them? The first one I fought wasn’t too bad cause I rushed it while it was on the ground so it kept missing its shots (except one, rip dogo) but another one levitated up three floors and proceeded to rinse me and my team of highly trained snipers unloading on it.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2023, 05:58:22 pm »
If you like to spam small HE explosions, Auto-Cannon is where it's at. :)

Avatars are weak to stun damage (actual stun type, not just nonlethal damage). Electric and maybe bio to a somewhat lesser degree. So if I can't bludgeon the pests because they're flying, I'd shoot them with blunt grenades or perhaps shotgun beanbag rounds. Tasers and Taser Cannons might also work, or maybe Cyberweb guns (although those have terrible ergonomics). Dart guns suck and you're nowhere near getting Small Launchers or the like.

Offline nickboom

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2023, 12:01:36 am »
Oooh, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the tips, another question, are there any critters really worth researching (as anything besides a backup for score)? I've noticed most of them don't grant much other than the ability to drain energetic plasma from them but I have no use for it yet. The only line I've found to grant value is zombies. The rest don't seem to give much other than the ability to check their stats on mission.

Offline Chuckebaby

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2023, 12:55:15 am »
Those are not really part of the cult eradication arcs from what I can tell.

in order to defeat Black Lotus you need to capture
Spoiler:
the golden shrine statue
in the outdoor/jungle terrain mission where it is located (inside the stone built pyramid structure). HQ turns the Psychonic amplifier off.

Unless there is some way of bypassing this to open up "Terminate the Black lotus" in Research". I haven't found it. I've had to research the shrine, then that open up Terminate BL .
If not, then what is the purpose of capturing the shrine?

I'm also very open to being wrong.  ;D
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 01:14:33 am by Chuckebaby »

Offline Juku121

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2023, 01:27:17 am »
...are there any critters really worth researching (as anything besides a backup for score)?

The only line I've found to grant value is zombies.
Not sure what said value of Zombies is, but I'll assume it's the unlocking of their story arc and related missions.

Spoiler:
Both werecritters and Mongorns unlock a mission type for random generation. Shamblers allow you to start the Shogg arc. Rats and bats can be domesticated. Spikeboars give you Quillbows and Chupacabras can be processed into Zephyr serum. Muckstars provide improved taser ammo. Spiders give spider silk and beetles their shells for two kinds of under-armour.

in order to defeat Black Lotus you need to capture
Spoiler:
the golden shrine statue
in the outdoor/jungle terrain mission where it is located (inside the stone built pyramid structure). HQ turns the Psychonic amplifier off.

I've had to research the shrine, then that open up Terminate BL .
If not, then what is the purpose of capturing the shrine?

I'm also very open to being wrong.
You are. :P
  • The spoiled thingy is in Dagon HQ, not in the BL shrine.
  • The Dagon McGuffin has no effect on Black Lotus.
  • Termination opens up once you research the Black Lotus McGuffin, which is different.

The BL jungle shrine is one way to get a troll lady to interrogate and unlock the HQ. The pyramid temple is for killing off the Dagon cult.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 01:29:15 am by Juku121 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2023, 12:24:50 pm »
Which I still think is a bit misleading given the wording of the prerequesite. Really, the player should demonstrate that they are actually able to shut the cults down. "Sure, we could if we wanted to" isn't really a basis on which to award more privileges, given that x-com takes the blame for basically everything else that's happening around the globe regardless of them being able to adress it or not.

To be honest, these conditions evolved a lot over the years. Some of it was related to me getting better (or at least different) ideas, but more commonly it was the engine itself changing and allowing for new things. In this case, I can't remember why I decided to do it this way - perhaps out of caution, not knowing how exactly the campaign will play after eliminating a cult just like that - but it would be easy to change.

Offline Chuckebaby

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Re: Need some help figuring out the progression
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2023, 01:05:02 pm »
Your right, my apologies. That is the Church of Dagon HQ. I'm a mess.