Best way to deal with Ship Turrets on Terror missions

[Chuckebaby]

These are painful to exterminate. I'm using Heavy Gauss because Heavy Plasma is hit or miss (no pun intended).
Is there a better way to drop the shield ?

These missions are pretty difficult, really enjoy them.

[Juku121]

Big lasers are the best, IMO. Especially the new laser cannons, and Scatter Turbolaser works wonders if you're in range.

Otherwise, hit them with heavy weapons from afar. Mortars and Rocket launchers with Large Rockets or some of the more advanced ones seem to be the best for this.

And, of course, sniper weapons. Sniper lasers especially. Neatly solves your 'miss' problem, too.

In a pinch, miniguns also work, but it's hard to get them close enough without sacrificing someone.

Actually, those Heavy Plasmas are pretty good, too. Like 4-5 hits to kill, and you get 2-3 snaps with passable accuracy per turn. 2-3 Heavy Plasmas should pretty reliably kill a big turret from even ~30 tiles away. Heavy Gauss has noticeably worse accuracy and penetration.

I assume you have agents with passable firing accuracy for this and aren't just spray-n-praying from afar?

[Chuckebaby]

Big lasers are the best, IMO. Especially the new laser cannons, and Scatter Turbolaser works wonders if you're in range.

Otherwise, hit them with heavy weapons from afar. Mortars and Rocket launchers with Large Rockets or some of the more advanced ones seem to be the best for this.

And, of course, sniper weapons. Sniper lasers especially. Neatly solves your 'miss' problem, too.

In a pinch, miniguns also work, but it's hard to get them close enough without sacrificing someone.

Actually, those Heavy Plasmas are pretty good, too. Like 4-5 hits to kill, and you get 2-3 snaps with passable accuracy per turn. 2-3 Heavy Plasmas should pretty reliably kill a big turret from even ~30 tiles away. Heavy Gauss has noticeably worse accuracy and penetration.

I assume you have agents with passable firing accuracy for this and aren't just spray-n-praying from afar?

Solid advice Juku, thanks.

You are correct too about the accuracy of the heavy Gauss. Those things are super powerful (good for Sectopods too) but cant hit the side of a barn. Their accuracy sucks. Have to be close range to get precise.

Love the laser cannon idea. Will give that a whirl.

[Juku121]

Oh, BTW you know what the real turret-killer is? The Elerium Missile. Regularly one-shots the turrets from half a map away, better than even a Blaster Launcher. Kinda hard to access and maintain, though.

[Vakrug]

These are painful to exterminate. I'm using Heavy Gauss because Heavy Plasma is hit or miss (no pun intended).

Gauss weapons sucks! Not only against Terror Turrets, but in general. Not tested them against Sectopods thou. Plasma weapons also sucks! Especially against Sectopods. Turbo Lasers rules! In pretty much every situation. Also, as Juku121 mentioned, Rocket Launchers are excellent against those turrets. 1 tritanium shrapnel rocket --> -2 terror turrets.

[Juku121]

Yeah, it's a pity using Plasma against the aliens is kinda meh, and that all types of railguns have exactly zero armour penetration, worse than 5.56 bullets. I'd expect a railgun to be bigger on penetration than damage.

Tritanium rockets are so OP I don't intentionally use them. Also, why cutting/shrapnel damage pierces what high-energy plasma and hypervelocity rounds cannot is a mystery.

[Chuckebaby]

all types of railguns have exactly zero armour penetration, worse than 5.56 bullets. I'd expect a railgun to be bigger on penetration than damage.

Agreed, Was the first thing I tried. Was surprised how ineffective they were. Surprising too seeing as their damage rating is huge.

1 tritanium shrapnel rocket --> -2 terror turrets.

Tried an Erilium high explosive on my last time around, Was so funny, It blew the turret right off the ship.
The turret was laying on the ground.. and it was still operative, firing at my guys from the ground 

[Solarius Scorch]

Yeah, it's a pity using Plasma against the aliens is kinda meh, and that all types of railguns have exactly zero armour penetration, worse than 5.56 bullets. I'd expect a railgun to be bigger on penetration than damage.

Is it so weird that they are prepared against weapons they use themselves, and in a campaign where they're likely to have some weapons captured by the enemy?

Tritanium rockets are so OP I don't intentionally use them.

I merely extrapolated the weapons' power from their smaller/earlier versions... Except the fire effect on trit shrapnel ammo, I just like it too much.

Also, why cutting/shrapnel damage pierces what high-energy plasma and hypervelocity rounds cannot is a mystery.

Turrets have similar resistance to kinetic and energy weapons.

[Juku121]

No, that's kinda realistic for small-scale combat and police actions. But the degree of how useful other weapons are compared to plasmas and how hard it is to actually unlock said not-so-hot plasma are issues. I mean, didn't you yourself say at one point that this is what the aliens have arrived at after millennia of weapons development and conquest? Did they never run into predators with big teeth and claws before? Primitives with sticks? Because these work better against their turrets than plasma.

As to Tritanium rockets, it's not as if the Tritanium charges aren't kinda OP themselves. The whole family is more akin to some kind of super-napalm than shrapnel. I'd be entirely fine with it if it was an offshoot of the aliens' Incinerator weapons, with commensurate research and Elerium requirements.

Alien turrets have similar resistance to energy and kinetic damage, not cutting damage. The Cyberwatch turrets even take massively more damage from cutting. UAC and Reptiloids can actually protect their turrets against melee weapons, IDK what the aliens' deal is. It kinda leaves me with the same feeling of bad taste as when I read Poul Anderson's "The High Crusade" where longbows, knights charging on horseback and the intrigue competence of a medieval English noble (not a particularly high-ranking one, at that) used to plotting against the French were complete OCPs for an interstellar empire. And that was more or less intentional satire.


Edit: In any case, my biggest problem with these things is that they screw over progression. Tritanium missiles can be had long before even using captured plasmas becomes a thing, yet their effectiveness is just, well, mindblowing. The juiciest loot in the game is hidden inside UFOs, and your best tactics against the turrets and Cyberdisks that guard the UFOs are melee (dogs, even) and alloy missiles, not endgame plasmas and Blaster Launchers. It's hard to find a good niche for railguns since big damage is all they've got going for them, and various armour parameters make that damage matter a lot less than just looking at the big numbers might lead you to believe. At least lasers are in a sweet spot.

The same 'upgrades that are not upgrades' thing was a major reason why people disliked Phoenix Point.

[Solarius Scorch]

No, that's kinda realistic for small-scale combat and police actions. But the degree of how useful other weapons are compared to plasmas and how hard it is to actually unlock said not-so-hot plasma are issues. I mean, didn't you yourself say at one point that this is what the aliens have arrived at after millennia of weapons development and conquest? Did they never run into predators with big teeth and claws before? Primitives with sticks? Because these work better against their turrets than plasma.

But that is actually my point; their weapons are designed to perfection. This doesn't necessarily mean raw firepower.

Alien weaponry seems to be the answer to the following problems:
1. Weapons which work reasonably well against low-tech locals.
2. Weapons which don't work reasonably well on us, if grabbed by said low-tech locals.
3. Weapons which can be used by poorly socialised, selectively lobotomised junkies.

At least that's what I'm inferring from the setting.

The aliens aren't conquerors (at least not on Earth), so firepower is not a priority. They are just as worried about controlling their own force, and about the outcomes of contact with Earthlings. And I believe that yes, the aliens could easily outfit their troops with stronger and better weapons, but that would go against their other goals listed above. (And also make the mod boring; get the plasmas or GTFO, like in vanilla.)

As to Tritanium rockets, it's not as if the Tritanium charges aren't kinda OP themselves. The whole family is more akin to some kind of super-napalm than shrapnel. I'd be entirely fine with it if it was an offshoot of the aliens' Incinerator weapons, with commensurate research and Elerium requirements.

Alien turrets have similar resistance to energy and kinetic damage, not cutting damage. The Cyberwatch turrets even take massively more damage from cutting.

Right, right - I did this mostly to make sword charges more viable, but I see how it makes tritanium shrapnel a little too good.

What if, hypothetically, tritanium shrapnel had the same base power as comparable explosives, only a different damage type? Would it be too weak then?

[Juku121]

But that is actually my point; their weapons are designed to perfection. This doesn't necessarily mean raw firepower.

Alien weaponry seems to be the answer to the following problems:

...

Well, that's fine as a thematic approach. I just can't muster much enthusiasm for fighting what's essentially an interstellar accountant empire.

It also kinda goes against what the plasma weapons are, something that oparates on and beyond the borders of what's physically feasible. These things use antimatter and gravity control to fire miniature suns, for crying out loud! If the aliens were outfitted with some sort of toxin weapons they were immune to themselves, similar to many terrorists and Apocalypse weapons, and plasmas were the ultimate fallback for when the locals get clever, that would also fulfill all of these requirements, with plenty of precedent in fiction and even the same franchise. And wouldn't hit the players with "Congrats, you unlocked the final weapon tier! Enjoy doing just as much if not less damage than before!".

And also make the mod boring; get the plasmas or GTFO, like in vanilla.

You could make resistances stronger and sprinkle in heavily (plasma-)resistant enemies so no single damage type will ever win you a mission without excessive luck or shenanigans. Well, at least against the aliens.

What if, hypothetically, tritanium shrapnel had the same base power as comparable explosives, only a different damage type? Would it be too weak then?

If it still requires alloys and regular explosives don't, probably. There are quite a few enemies with different cutting and concussion resistances, but if you have to spend what are now rare-ish resources just to shuffle your preferred targets around a bit...

What I'd do is make them more like shotgun rounds: increased armour effectiveness and increased damage post-penetration. I don't think you can have shotgun-type projectiles on explosives? So kinda like Pulse weapons. Maybe more fatal wounds. And possibly make some plasma-incinerator weapons to take their current role, if you still want it.

[Solarius Scorch]

Well, that's fine as a thematic approach. I just can't muster much enthusiasm for fighting what's essentially an interstellar accountant empire.

Why not? This is literally space politics, not a simple invasion. And what's bad about it?

It also kinda goes against what the plasma weapons are, something that oparates on and beyond the borders of what's physically feasible. These things use antimatter and gravity control to fire miniature suns, for crying out loud! If the aliens were outfitted with some sort of toxin weapons they were immune to themselves, similar to many terrorists and Apocalypse weapons, and plasmas were the ultimate fallback for when the locals get clever, that would also fulfill all of these requirements, with plenty of precedent in fiction and even the same franchise. And wouldn't hit the players with "Congrats, you unlocked the final weapon tier! Enjoy doing just as much if not less damage than before!".

Yes, there's an infinite number of alternatives, and to each there is an infinite number of answers. But we are where we are.

You could make resistances stronger and sprinkle in heavily (plasma-)resistant enemies so no single damage type will ever win you a mission without excessive luck or shenanigans. Well, at least against the aliens.

I kind of did... And from the context of this discussion, looks like it was successful?

If it still requires alloys and regular explosives don't, probably. There are quite a few enemies with different cutting and concussion resistances, but if you have to spend what are now rare-ish resources just to shuffle your preferred targets around a bit...

What I'd do is make them more like shotgun rounds: increased armour effectiveness and increased damage post-penetration. I don't think you can have shotgun-type projectiles on explosives? So kinda like Pulse weapons. Maybe more fatal wounds.

Yeah, this can be done, thanks. I'll consider it seriously.

And possibly make some plasma-incinerator weapons to take their current role, if you still want it.

How exactly do you see this role?

EDIT:
Consider HWP Tritanium Rockets as an example. With the changes you proposed, we go from this:

Code: [Select]

    power: 80
    damageAlter:
      ResistType: 7
      FixRadius: 5
      RadiusReduction: 6
      FireThreshold: 30
      ToMorale: 5.0
      ToArmorPre: 0.05
      ToStun: 0.7
      ToTile: 0.25

to this:

Code: [Select]

    power: 80
    damageAlter:
      ResistType: 7
      FixRadius: 5
      RadiusReduction: 6
      FireThreshold: 110
      ToHealth: 1.25
      ToMorale: 5.0
      ToArmorPre: 0.05
      ArmorEffectiveness: 1.1
      ToStun: 0.7
      ToTile: 0.25

Doesn't look all that weaker to me, maybe it's even better. And I don't like the increased armour effect, it goes against the basic principle of "tritanium = AP".

[Juku121]

Consider HWP Tritanium Rockets as an example. With the changes you proposed, we go from this:

Code: [Select]

    power: 80
    damageAlter:
      ResistType: 7
      FixRadius: 5
      RadiusReduction: 6
      FireThreshold: 30
      ToMorale: 5.0
      ToArmorPre: 0.05
      ToStun: 0.7
      ToTile: 0.25

to this:

Code: [Select]

    power: 80
    damageAlter:
      ResistType: 7
      FixRadius: 5
      RadiusReduction: 6
      FireThreshold: 110
      ToHealth: 1.25
      ToMorale: 5.0
      ToArmorPre: 0.05
      ArmorEffectiveness: 1.1
      ToStun: 0.7
      ToTile: 0.25

Doesn't look all that weaker to me, maybe it's even better. And I don't like the increased armour effect, it goes against the basic principle of "tritanium = AP".

I was under the impression that alien alloys were supposedly malleable to be better than Earth materials at any aspect, not just toughness? Just not everything at the same time. So one alloy can be super-sharp, and another can be super-resilient but elastic. Maybe that's not how it works in XCF any more.

Also, from a 'realism' POV, 'shrapnel' is exactly the opposite of AP. Modern body armour was originally almost solely anti-shrapnel.

And if that is the case, why is most Tritanium ammo just a straight damage increase with no AP changes? Some of the BO rifles even go from 80% up to 85%.


In any case, I was thinking more along the lines of

Code: [Select]

    power: 80
    damageAlter:
      ResistType: 7
      FixRadius: 5
      RadiusReduction: 6
      FireThreshold: 1000 # default
      ToHealth: 1.5
      ToMorale: 0.0 # default
      ToArmorPre: 0.0 # default
      ArmorEffectiveness: 2.0
      ToStun: 0.25 # default
      ToTile: 0.25
      RandomWound: false
      ToWound: 2.0
So you do more damage until armour values of 25% nominal damage or so (20 in this case), and wounds on almost any damage plus more wounds for actual damage. The thresholds for other shrapnel explosives would be 17, 25, 27, 43. If that seems too much, ArmorEffectiveness: 1.5 would lift it to 40%. Though that would generally be well beyond anything below light power armour and make the distinction kinda useless since the vast majority of enemies will not have as much under armour.

Or 1.25 and 1.5 for damage and armour effectiveness, which puts the threshold at ~28%, but IMO the damage increase is starting to look questionable then.

Why not? This is literally space politics, not a simple invasion. And what's bad about it?

Intrinsically, nothing. Doesn't have the 'planetary defense simulator' vibe for me any more, though. I tried XCOM2 recently, and while it's mechanically a significantly better game than XCOM1, I just could not care for any of its themes - which were exactly space politics and engineering a local power system to keep humanity down and exploited for the Ethereals' ends. And from what I've heard, I'm not nearly alone in this.

Edit2: I play X-Com to take the aliens' guns and shoot them in the face. Not to carefully counter their slave- and population-management plans, play office politics with the Council, reign in weird homage enemies like the UAC or demon/ghost cultists, etc. I want to kick teeth in and BLOW SHIT UP, or at least die trying. Against aliens, hybrids, MiBs, Reptiloids masquerading as people, Illuminati artifact collector cults, farmers brainwashed by ETs - things related to classic UFO folklore. Space Vikings if nothing else, even. For good or ill, XCF is the closest I can get to the full OXCE experience of this. I appreciate that it exists, is still actively developed, and does a lot of things I want in an X-Com game. But not quite all of them, which is why I'm bellyaching here on the forums.

I kind of did... And from the context of this discussion, looks like it was successful?

Not really. Heavy Plasma, Precision Plasma, Turbolaser Cannon and Heavy Gauss all kill a big alien turret in about 3-6 shots (though the Heavy Gauss trends more towards 6), which makes sense since the thing's resistances against all of these damage types are within 10% of each other. The point of contention in the discussion was that Heavy Plasma isn't really an upgrade.

The alien turrets are pretty much the opposite of a hard counter to plasma. They disable or weaken a lot of alternative damage types, but the big three OG types are all viable.

Edit: In fact, there are very few hard counters to any of Plasma, Laser or Kinetic.

How exactly do you see this role?

Plasma damage type, morale damage, sets things on fire, eats armour. Or just the Incinerator Grenade in missile form if you like that model better.


Edit:

Yes, there's an infinite number of alternatives, and to each there is an infinite number of answers. But we are where we are.

And it was a deliberate choice to move the mod to where we are now.

I was also not talking about wild strange alternatives. Having aliens with bio-weapons they themselves are immune or resistant to is one of the more popular concepts. Apocalypse aliens, Xenomorphs, Tyranids and their knockoffs like the Symbionts, the Zerg... It's also already partially present in the game with all the bio-terror units, Toxiguns, Hybrid Chemoguns and the like.


Doubt either of us will convince the other on this, at least as far as the mod is concerned.

[PPQ]

I was under the impression that alien alloys were supposedly malleable to be better than Earth materials at any aspect, not just toughness? Just not everything at the same time. So one alloy can be super-sharp, and another can be super-resilient but elastic. Maybe that's not how it works in XCF any more.

Also, from a 'realism' POV, 'shrapnel' is exactly the opposite of AP. Modern body armour was originally almost solely anti-shrapnel.

And if that is the case, why is most Tritanium ammo just a straight damage increase with no AP changes? Some of the BO rifles even go from 80% up to 85%.

Armor penetration is not a function of sharpness. Indeed, sharpness is honestly mostly irrelevant to the equation beyond a certain minimum requirement. You want your penetrator to be sharp so it bites in but that's it. It can even be counterproductive as a sharper edge is by definition thinner and thus easier to break and deflect.

Armor penetration is primarily a function of kinetic energy, momentum and the relationship in toughness and hardness between the two materials. In other words how much energy your projectile carries, how hard it is to stop and how likely it is to deform on impact as opposed to deforming the target material.

That is why wolfram and depleted uranium are used as penetrators in modern tanks. They are very dense and therefore have a lot of mass for their size which contributes to momentum. And they have material properties such that they are much harder to deform than steel which in turn means they will go through it rather than being squashed on impact.

Judging by their performance both in the base game and this mod alien alloys are some sort of ultra tough low mass material. Something like titanium but much better. This won't give them as much mass to play with as DU or wolfram and thus not as much armor penetration from momentum. But it would give them extreme resistance to deformation. Which in turn would make them both good as an armor material and a penetrator, up to a certain point where mass becomes an issue. So I am not sure if you'd want to be making say tank shells from the stuff.


And this is where we get to shrapnel. The first thing to realize is that shrapnel is NOT small. We aren't talking birdshot size pellets here. Well, not entirely. You will of course get plenty of those as well, especially from something small like a grenade. And your conventional infantry armor and helmets are going to provide good protection against those. But when it comes to mortar shells, artillery, RPG rockets or anything like that you will also get a lot of chunks that are much larger. Sufficed to say that a chunk of super tough metal the size of your hand or larger flying at supersonic speeds is going to go through a lot. And no body armor is going to reliably protect you from those.

Ultimately armor, especially infantry armor is not about providing perfect protection. It's about providing some protection and praying that the big chunks don't hit you.


PS: Finally, when it comes to things that make going through armor easier they also tend to make actual damage afterward harder. As in, the ultimate way of damaging tissue is either fire, plasma or a projectile that tumbles, deforms and generally makes a mess of your insides. Where as for armor penetration you want the opposite. A small diameter (relative to your target) high resistance material that has a lot of momentum to keep it pushing through the armor. Such projectiles will in fact NOT tumble or deform but will want to go clean through. So realistically AP optimized weapons should have more penetration but less overall damage than their soft point counterparts.

Edit2: I play X-Com to take the aliens' guns and shoot them in the face. Not to carefully counter their slave- and population-management plans, play office politics with the Council, reign in weird homage enemies like the UAC or demon/ghost cultists, etc. I want to kick teeth in and BLOW SHIT UP, or at least die trying. Against aliens, hybrids, MiBs, Reptiloids masquerading as people, Illuminati artifact collector cults, farmers brainwashed by ETs - things related to classic UFO folklore. Space Vikings if nothing else, even. For good or ill, XCF is the closest I can get to the full OXCE experience of this. I appreciate that it exists, is still actively developed, and does a lot of things I want in an X-Com game. But not quite all of them, which is why I'm bellyaching here on the forums.

Honestly I really really really like the office politics part of this. It really makes this mod pop by making it not just another tactical game with an excuse plot. If anything I would like to see more plot development in that direction to the point where it becomes a much larger part of the mod.

Like imagine if you could have fewer missions than you do now, especially in the early game. And instead you got the items and research you needed to progress by progressing down plot paths. Especially in the part of the game between promotion I being done and promotion II. Like that part is just you being spammed with missions to give you a chance to capture important people to interview.

[Juku121]

Generally true and a nice writeup. However, to get you that Captain promotion...

Armor penetration is not a function of sharpness. ... easier to break and deflect.

I was more thinking about the swords when I wrote about alloy sharpness. I've always imagined the alloys as more varied than just the lightweight but tough UFO hull material, what with them being called alloys.

And a super-tough space magic alloy will care a lot less about getting broken.

...which in turn means they will go through it rather than being squashed on impact.

True, but they can also deflect. Most vehicle armour is supposed to at least somewhat deflect armour penetrators, not tank them head-on. Which is why we have shaped charges and modern top-attack munitions.

Infantry versions are iffier on that front.

But it would give them extreme resistance to deformation. Which in turn would make them both good as an armor material and a penetrator, up to a certain point where mass becomes an issue.

Being in merely super-tough body armour is not all that cool for the person inside. Which is why you no longer see much of steel or titanium plates in modern plate carriers.

Ultimately armor, especially infantry armor is not about providing perfect protection. It's about providing some protection and praying that the big chunks don't hit you.

Or that the small pieces don't get you in the neck, hand or somewhere else important. And there are a lot of these small pieces.

And those prayers are quite likely to be answered. The limited number of big chunks have an entire sphere of directions to go towards, and most of those are completely void of targets. Well, maybe there's some ground deflection.

So realistically AP optimized weapons should have more penetration but less overall damage than their soft point counterparts.

HEIAP.



Edit to the edit:

Honestly I really really really like the office politics part of this. It really makes this mod pop by making it not just another tactical game with an excuse plot.

IMO, what's there is merely a different excuse, just not one I like thematically. A tactical game lives and dies on its mission variety, and Solarius does make some interesting missions.

But OXC(E) is not a politics game, and has nearly no engine support to be one. If I want to play a diplomacy/faction management game, I'll play something where that's built in. Even Phoenix Point, if I need some hostile aliens in it.

I don't really like that XCF is progressively getting turned more and more into a facsimile of a tabletop campaign. Obviously, you and Solarius and a whole lot of others think differently.

Like imagine if you could have fewer missions than you do now, especially in the early game. And instead you got the items and research you needed to progress by progressing down plot paths.

That will basically be a branching string of missions. That's no longer classic X-Com, that's more a story-based game like Silent Storm, Chimera Squad or Fire Emblem.